Employing Differences

Employing Differences, Episode 101: What have we learned?

April 19, 2022 Karen Gimnig & Paul Tevis
Employing Differences
Employing Differences, Episode 101: What have we learned?
Show Notes Transcript

"If we want to create space for learning, we need to actually believe that change and improvement is possible. And then we actually need to act as though that is true."

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Paul:

Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

Karen:

I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul:

And I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen:

Each episode, we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, "What have we learned?"

Paul:

We both do a fair amount of work with groups. And one of the things that's interesting about working in groups, they're often there to accomplish some purpose. They're there to achieve some outcomes, something they want to move toward. We actually just talked about this in our last episode about where it is we want to be going. What it is that we want to be doing? What does success really look like? And then one of the things that's really useful on the way is – as we are working – to figure out, "Okay, if we evaluate how we are working against that, are we making progress? What are we doing that's actually helping us to move towards that?" There's a lot of opportunities for learning. The idea is that we can figure out how we're working. Is that actually helping us to move towards what it is that we say we want? And I think our shared experience has been that in a lot of cases, groups don't do that. What have we learned? I think our default is "not much" because of a couple of different things that happen. And so we want to dig into today a little bit, why is it that teams and groups and organizations sometimes don't learn, and don't take advantage of the experience they're having together to get better, to improve their ways of working together? And then what can they actually do? And often, how do we support them to do more of that learning so that they can actually improve their ways of being and working together?

Karen:

Yeah. So I think I do want to just pull from the last episode that the first piece of this is we've got to be aligned on what it is that we're trying to do. Because I think often we aren't actually as aligned as we think we are. And so we don't learn because we're just stuck in, "Well, they don't want what I want. There isn't a way to learn how to work together, because we don't even want the same thing." So I think what I'd like to focus on more today is, so let's assume we did the work that we talked about in the last episode. We got a clear shared understanding of what our goals are, what success looks like. And we've got that, so then what happens that we don't end up still moving closer and closer to it? And I think a lot of it is just habit. We're in very comfortable habits. That we do the same things over and over again. And it turns out that if we look back and learn how to do something differently, then we're going to have to do it differently. We're gonna have to do it in a way that's probably less comfortable, probably less secure. We're probably less confident. Because when we learn a thing, and we have to do it in a different way, all of this comfort of "I've done this 100 times" disappears. And even if that wasn't working, I still like the comfort of, "But I've done it before, I know how to do it, I even know what the outcome will be." And there's comfort in that.

Paul:

Absolutely. And that gets to the idea that in order for learning to happen and in order for us to make space for it in groups, we have to believe that change is possible. Or we have to believe that we could actually do something different. And quite frankly, in a lot of organizations that I work with, in a lot of groups that I work with, they don't leave space for learning. And I think it's because there's an implicit assumption of, "We're not going to change. We're not going to do anything." So I do a lot of work with Agile teams, and retrospectives are a core practice in Scrum and in a lot of Agile processes, Really reflecting on how do we work together? What can we learn? What might we try to do differently? And the thing I've said is, "If you're not going to actually try to do anything different, don't bother doing a retrospective." If you if you're not actually committed to the notion of "we could get better"– that it is possible to improve– then don't try. It's just going to frustrate people. They're going to feel like it's a waste of time. And so I think one of the key things that we need to do if we want to create space for learning... One is that we need to actually believe that change and improvement is possible. And then, two, we actually need to act as though that is true.

Karen:

Yeah, I think that's true. And, I think I want to put a particular caveat on this point, which is – mostly – I need to believe that it's possible for me to change. And even that it's a good idea for me to change. And I need to act like it's a good idea for me to change. It's actually incredibly less useful for me to act like it's a good idea for you to change. It's actually very comfortable for me to say all the ways that you should be different than you are and how that would make my life so much easier, which might even be true. But that doesn't turn out to be the way change and learning happens. So it is a thing of individual and joint ownership, but not external ownership. So, yes, me as an individual, I can work on this. We as a team - and I can speak to that we as a team. And there's even room when asked for for some feedback – and there's another episode about that we could look back to. But if primarily your welcoming of change applies to other people changing, you've kind of missed the key here.

Paul:

Yeah. So if we believe that we might actually be able to do something different, or that I believe that I might actually be able to do something that's different, that's the first step. That's a prerequisite. And then I think another important thing is, we then have to make space and time for it. Because what this is,based around is the idea that we want to do some work – we want to do something together – and then we want to figure out what can we learn from that? And that requires us to actually stop and reflect on what we did. What did we actually do? And if we evaluate that against our agreed upon yardstick – of we're trying to move in this direction, we have this alignment around what success looks like, where we're actually trying to go – how did it actually help us move towards that? And really, we have to compare. And this is where things get a little dicey, – and this is where I think groups are not comfortable doing this – they have to have a space where it's safe for them to talk about how what they did might not have actually moved them towards their shared goal. Or how they might have moved towards it but there might be better ways. And so what we're actually asking us to do is, as a group is to do some level of self-evaluation, and self- reflection. And that's a vulnerable, dangerous territory. And so we need to create space, we need to create safety for that reflection to actually happen.

Karen:

Yeah. And there are a lot of frames for creating that safety. One that I particularly like, comes from the Imago Relationships training, a model that they use in their training. So in learning spaces, where everybody's identified as someone who wants to learn how to do a thing. But they do feedback... So if somebody's done an example of work, the individual who was primarily doing the work gives feedback to themselves first, and then each other person gives feedback, but always in the same frame, which is first, "How was I feeling in my body? "And then what might that tell me about emotionally? But how did it feel to me as it was happening? And then, "What do I think I did well? And then"What suggestions do I have for myself?" And I think that suggestion frame is really interesting. And especially as we're applying it to somebody else. "A suggestion that I might have..." which is to say, "I'm not telling you you did it wrong. I'm not telling you you should do a different thing. I'm not asserting a particular outcome. I am merely offering an idea that you can take or not." It's just an idea that goes into the mix. And then the group might talk about it, or the other person might ask questions about it, or you could engage around that. But it's this space of staying out of the judgment, but that sort of creative generation of ideas that is the idea of a suggestion, which is so different than a directive.

Paul:

So, judgment is, I think, an important word,to focus on here. Because I think that is one of the things that keeps us from learning and keeps us from reflecting – is the fear of being judged. And the thing that I always tell people... I used to for a long time, say "Oh, we're gonna have a retrospective. This is a judgment free zone." And I don't say that anymore because I don't believe it's true. So what I actually say is, "Here's what I'm going to ask people to do is to notice your judgments." To notice where you are judging what someone else is doing, or what's what you are doing. And hold it lightly. Notice it. Own it. Try not to act from that place. Because there are absolutely times when I'm working on stuff and working in a team and working in a group, we're trying to learn stuff, and I get into this space where we're supposed to learn from what we've done, and I am judging the heck out of everybody. And I know that, so that I can then work with it and go, "Okay, that thing that I was about to say..." Going back to the idea of of the outcome that I want, if the outcome that I want is for us to actually improve, then speaking from that place of judgment might feel really good and self-righteous, but probably isn't actually going to achieve the outcome that I want. And so I think noticing, and owning, and then working with, and stepping through that place of judgment is a really key thing, particularly when we're doing this in groups.

Karen:

Yeah, and I think it can be useful in that to have a space where you can talk through it. So even to be able to say,"I am feeling judgment about this, I suspect it's going to land that way. I'm aware of it. I want you to push back, but I just need to say it." Like the words I've got sound really judgy. So there's different ways to go with that noticing. And also that there's space for when I don't notice, and I just land out judgy hopefully everybody else is having a better day. And instead of judging my judgment – which they'd have every reason to do – they say, "Wow, that landed rough for me. I wonder if we can unpack that a little bit. I'm interested in what's behind it. And it's not feeling too safe over here." So can we can we begin to get systems that balance it? And to the extent that we can notice and be ready to regulate, one way we might frame that sort of judgment thing – which for me shows up as, "Well the right way to do it, would it be..." – if I can replace that language (both in my head and in my what I say, in my speech pattern) with, "What would work better for me..." Or possibly even, "What I think might work better for me would be..." And then I'm owning it for myself. And there's plenty of space for you to say, "Yeah, okay, that would work better for you. Let's think about that. It's not what's going to work better for me." I think of an example of that I'm living at the moment as we're moving. And my partner and I are trying to figure out what to do with stuff. And he keeps picking everything up off the floor and putting it on every other available surface. Because for him that's sanity. There space on the floor, there's openness, he has space to think. And for me, it's like, you're just taking things that are totally not organized and hiding them. Like you're making it harder for me to know what there is to do to me, that thing is still sitting on the floor, because we haven't gotten to it yet. It's functioning for me like a to-do list. So you're hiding my to-do lists and making them seem neat and tidy. And also covering up the spaces where I would want to put things that actually go there. And it was just totally different ways of working about it. And because we were able to say it that way, like, "This is what it seems like is working for you. This is the way it's not working for me," we could kind of talk through that and find the middle ground of,"Okay, we're going to do this and not that and sort that out together." And if we had gotten out it with judgment, it could have just been our first major fight. And so that's kind of what we're aiming for is that naming what is the thing that I need. Naming the thing that's bothering me, probably even naming the feelings associated with it, but without the judgment and blame and making space for someone to have a different idea.

Paul:

Judgment comes from a place of certainty. "We know. This is the right thing. This is what..." All these things. And the thing is that certainty is antithetical to learning. Learning is all about admitting what you don't know. It's impossible to learn in a place of certainty, because certainty means that you don't have anything to learn. And so I think the other reason – beyond just the interpersonal effects of judgment – the other thing about judgment is that it it lets us live in certainty when in fact, we're trying to get into that space of learning and curiosity and change. There's a lot of reasons why it it blocks us from actually being able to improve and to move more towards the outcome we want. And so there's a bunch of things there around how do we create a space where we can explore those sorts of things together. But the last thing I want to point to in terms of learning is not just that we talk about this stuff, and we go, "Oh, yeah, it would be better if we did this." We actually agree, we get to a spot where we go, "Yeah, it would be really useful if we did this thing in this different way." Or if we tried doing this thing in this different way. We believe that doing this process differently will get us a better result. Well, then we need to actually go and try it. We need to actually make the change. And that's I think, also where it's not enough to do – and this is why when we talk about organizational learning, one of things that frustrates me greatly is organizations that go, "Oh, yeah, at the end of all of our projects, we do a Lessons Learned." And then I ask, "So what do you do with those lessons?" And they're somewhere in some archive that maybe somebody could find if they went looking for a long time, but they don't actually impact the work. And this is where people fall into that belief that "We can't ever change." That belief of "change is not possible" has been reinforced by everything that you've been in. So in a lot of ways, breaking the logjam around that is "Great, we've reflected on this thing, we've noticed it might be useful for us to try," go and do it. Actually go take the action. Transform these thoughts, these opinions, these beliefs that you have about what might be better into action and try it. And then see what happens and start the cycle again. What do you learn from doing it in a different way? And I think that works really well, when we do it in small short cycles. When we're doing that continuously on a cadence that makes sense. We've talked before about "When does it make sense to reflect?" but in a cadence that sort of matches your work, which is probably more often that the group is used to or comfortable with.

Karen:

Yeah, and I think another piece of that, for me is, we often talk about, "Well, it would have been better if we done this thing," or "It would have been better if we'd done it that way." But we don't quite get to, "And what that would look like going forward is..." That thing that we think we want to learn from and change. Okay, so we've learned that we need more space for creativity. Okay, so we agree that we need more space for creativity. So does that mean that we're going to have unscheduled time on Mondays at 12? What's gonna give? What's going to change? What does that implementation actually look like? So that there is a plan attached to it. Because to your point, if we don't do it – and I think partly, we don't do it,

because, okay, retrospective:

check, done, put in the box. But also, if that learning space that we've paused to talk about things doesn't include sort of tangible changes – things that are visible and measurable, we can clearly see what we're doing– the odds that we're going to implement a sort of shift in values – these sort of wishy washy kinds of shifts, as I think of them – pretty small. So what we're looking for are what are the tangible things... And it may not be that one tangible thing is going to achieve the whole thing we said we wanted, but at least one absolutely tangible outcome that we can apply now going forward to the next thing, and then we check in. How are we doing on getting to success?

Paul:

The last I got through on that is that the advanced move that I do with groups is when they come up with the, "Here's the one thing we want to go try," I will ask, "What do you think is likely to get in the way of doing that?" Because here's the real thing. If that were easy, we probably would have done it already. But also recognize that what we're trying to do at that point is we're trying to make a change in the system. And everything in the system is giving us the result we're already getting. So if we can anticipate the resistance, if we can anticipate what will be hard about it, then we won't be surprised when it's hard. Because I think that's the thing that a lot of groups do. They think that because they've come up with a a tangible action, they then think it will be easy to do. And they're surprised when it isn't, and then they get discouraged. And then they go,"Well, that was a waste of time." And so I really do like to ask, "What are the things that we think – just spend three minutes – what's likely to get in the way of this?" "We're probably not going to have time." "Oh, probably nobody's going to think about it.""Nobody owns it. nobody's going to take the point on it.""Great. What are the things we can do real simply to to countermeasure those things? To give us a better chance of us actually trying the thing? So it's come up with something tangible, but also think about what are the obstacles we are likely to run into while we try to carry it out? To give us a better chance of actually succeeding at it.

Karen:

Yeah. So just to track where we started... We began with the question of "What have we learned?" And really, Paul and I kind of dove in with "The potential learning that was available is usually a lot higher than the actual learning that gets achieved." And that that happens, partly because learning is about change and change is scary and we're not comfortable with it. It happens partly because it's not built into our systems. We're so eager trying to do the next thing we don't take time to think through what might we have learned. And it happens, partly because we just don't have the skills to dig in and figure out what is it that we're ready to learn. And then it happens because judgment gets in the way. And that certainty piece of if we're very sure that our capacity for learning is is really not there. And so what we'd like to see instead is replacing judgment with curiosity, taking time to talk through what have we learned, what can we know. What might we suggest to each other as possibilities? What might work for me better? And how do we hear that and showing up with some vulnerability around that. And then getting tangible about,"Okay, these are the things that we agree would be better if they were different. What are tangible steps that we can make to actually make that change?" And then taking time to ask ourselves, "And what will get in the way of that?" so that we're ready for the obstacles that are inherent in the systems that we're working in that are the reason we haven't done that already. And so if we can follow all of that through – just those few little easy things – we can follow that all the way through, what we actually get is learning and positive change over time so that our groups become more and more effective over time.

Paul:

That's gonna do it for us for today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen:

And I'm Karen Gimnig, and this has been Employing Differences.