Employing Differences, Episode 102: Am I willing to meet then?

Karen: 0:08

Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

Paul: 0:15

I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: 0:17

And I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul: 0:19

Each episode, we start with a question and we see where it takes us. This week's question is, "Am I willing to meet then?"

Karen: 0:29

So Paul, and I started our gathering today with a conversation about schedules and scheduling and working with clients on scheduling, and the oddnesses of time zones, and how very reasonable people, for very reasonable reasons would like us to meet at times that aren't actually convenient for our lives – our personal lives, or our ability to take care of ourselves. Our East Coast clients would love us to meet right across breakfast. My West Coast clients would for me love to meet and evening hours. And so that interferes with my doing what I would like to be doing in evening hours outside of work. And so we found ourselves asking ourselves, we love our work, we love meeting with our clients, it's very reasonable that they're asking for these things. It's appropriate and useful to them, if we'll do them. But am I willing? What is the boundary for me about what actually works for me and serves me in terms of scheduling? And how available can I make myself? And what we found was that when we really asked ourselves those questions, it was incredibly complicated. Yes, I'm willing to meet evenings, but not every evening. If I can do two evening meetings in one evening, and leave the other four evenings of the week free, that's different than if I'm trying to meet an hour here and an hour there throughout. And, Paul, you were saying, well, you can do a seven o'clock if you have eight o'clock free to do your other morning things that you would normally have done before you started the workday. So just the complexity of all of that is fascinating to me. And really how in order to get to a good answer to this very simple question, "Hey, can we meet at 7am?" it requires a great deal of thinking and self-knowledge and paying attention to not just is my calendar free then – not just can I physically get myself in front of a computer or to a meeting at a particular time – but does it actually work for me?

Paul: 2:31

Mm hmm. The thing that I find that it really requires is to start to think systemically, and to look at patterns. So again, it's not the idea that this one thing in isolation is a problem. It's the "What's the pattern that works? What's the pattern that sustainable? How does this thing relate to all of these other things?" Because I think where we get into trouble– and this is like many things – is where we think of these things as occurring in isolation, when in fact, it's actually about the aggregate. It's about what's the larger pattern. So the thing you were saying. I'm willing to meet one evening a week. I'm not willing to do three. I'm not willing to do every evening. So it's not about, "Could I meet in the evening?" It's about, "Is this a pattern of things that is sustainable or workable for me?" And that often requires us to step back out of the moment to examine what are the patterns and the rules, fundamentally, that I could live with? If I were to describe how it is that I want to be operating it and what it is that I know about myself, in terms of what I need in order to be able to show up in a way that's of service to the group, that if I can step back and notice that – notice where things have gone badly in the past, what are the things that I don't want to repeat, and what are the patterns that are sustainable? If I can start to describe those, then one of the things that's actually really useful is being able to sort of explicitly describe those for others. To be able to say, I prefer not to do it this way. In the exceptional case, we might be able to talk a little bit about about doing this. But in

Karen: 4:14

Yeah, and I think, noticing how this is part of a general, here's what I notice about what I need to do in order broader pattern of boundary setting is really significant. to show up and be useful. I've probably mentioned this on the show before, there's a note that sits on my computer stand here, Because it reveals another piece of the boundary setting part, which I think is a quote originally from Brene Brown which is the boundaries that I need to set are actually which is "Resentment is a sign you haven't said something." And so for me, the idea of, "When can I meet? What's the pattern absolutely invisible to the rest of the world. So in the example that I want to use? What's the system that I need to be looking we're talking about, a client wants to meet with me. Thursday at?" is about avoiding resentment. It's about how do I speak up and say that's not going to work for me before I evening works for them. They don't know that I'm already get to the point where I lose it, where I get into that place doing evening meetings Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday of resentment? And I think that points to a more general thing, that week, and that I have a partner that works during the just around – fundamentally, what we're talking about is setting boundaries – about being able to say, "Actually, this week, you know, the business day. They don't know all that isn't workable for me. And it's not going to be workable for us, stuff. And so I can't rely on them. And I will say my clients because of what I know about how I will be changed by this if we move forward with it." really care about me. They're incredibly accommodating and very sweet to me. But that I can't rely on them to take care of things they don't know. And this would apply to a community that I have, people that I lived with, or a team that I was working on – that group of people that I'm trying to work with, they don't know for me what boundaries I need to set. They can't tell me what works for me, because they don't know. And they can start to know if we develop a relationship. A long term client will know from me if you really made the evening meeting, I'm willing to schedule it. If it's possible to do it during the work day, I'm going to ask you to do that. And they will, because we have an ongoing trusting relationship. And that will happen in teamwork as well. But really, at the end of the day, it's all got to start with me getting clear within myself about what actually works for me, and then being able to communicate that – either just by saying, "Nope, I'm not available at that time," knowing that, theoretically, I could have been but that it just doesn't work in my whole system. Or in being willing to say, "I could be available that time in a different week. This particular week I just have too much of that that." Depending on the relationship, I might tell more of the story, if it helps them get to know me and have that sort of bigger lens. But I think just recognizing how often we get to that place of resentment,we get to the place of "They're asking too much of me, they're too demanding, this group just isn't working for me." I can go to that story so quickly, just because I didn't set the boundary that I needed to five steps ago.

Paul: 7:53

I think we've talked before about one of my favorite sayings, which is "What you permit, you promote." And so it is one of the challenges when you start working with somebody new or in a new environment or things like that. I find it's really useful to try to set those boundaries super fast, from the get-go, because that's going to set the initial pattern for what's going on. I've certainly have had that experience where I realized that I was coming into a new job and I knew what I knew about myself. And so the first week, my new boss asked me for a thing. And I was just like, "No, we need to talk about that right now." But that idea of saying, "I'm not available, this is my availability," or this is a thing that I can't do or that other thing is not easy. And I find – even just thinking about scheduling and making my calendar available to people, like when could I be there – I find I get caught in one of two places. Sometimes both at the same time, because it's an advanced move. One of them is,"Well, do I really need to set this?" It's the whole, "Am I am I giving up on something that I could be doing?" Maybe I have the capacity to. Maybe I could do this. And so there's FOMO, there's the fear of missing out."Oh, because I didn't have this slot available, this client didn't schedule this thing with me, and so I missed out on the opportunity." That's one piece. I have gotten reasonably good at managing that. The other part is the "I'm afraid of disappointing this person." And it's actually much of the personal, of the"What will it do to the relationship if I try to advocate for my own needs?"

Karen: 9:50

Yeah. And I think we tend to have both of those, and at different phases in our lives, one more than the other. You know, if you're starting a new business than the Fear of Missing Out piece is a bigger deal, like, "I might miss a client." And then the "But I might disappoint somebody else," and the relationship piece might come in more at other times depending. But I think that what we miss in this is the Gift of No. That in being clear about,"This is actually what's going to work for me," I am giving that other person an opportunity to know me and opportunity to understand me. In a way, I'm giving them permission to set their own boundaries and say no about things. When it's between me and a client, I'm giving them more clarity about how I actually work. What really is going to be in this relationship, are we a good fit? And sometimes, frankly, the boundary I'd need to set is, "I could do the thing you're asking me to do and you'd pay me for it and I'd come out all right, but I wouldn't feel good about what you got out of it. I don't think it's going to work for you." Asking me to do it in a different way than I really think is the right way – when I set that boundary, I'm actually serving my client. If in fact, I'm the right consultant for you and what I think is good for you is good for you, then you don't want the thing you just asked me for. And so I think really broadening that whole boundary setting thing, I think we tell ourselves the story that if I set a boundary, I'm taking care of me at a cost to you. When in fact skillful boundary setting – and that's not anything I don't like I set a boundary around without thinking, that that's not skillful boundary setting either – but skillful boundary setting serves both of us in really powerful ways. And I think shifting that thought pattern really helps with that"Oh, I might disappoint them" getting in the way.

Paul: 12:02

Right. And it's also it's shifting – when I find myself falling into the pattern of,"Well, if I say no to this thing, if I set a boundary around this thing that might disappoint them," I also have to say, "So if I say yes to them, how might that disappoint them?" Because if I shift it that way, I go, "Well, that might actually be worse," and it might help me to get to that spot. But yeah, taking it from something – reframing it so that it's not something that seems selfish or self-centered or only about me, that it actually becomes about creating the fertile ground conditions for collaboration, for us to actually work together is a key thing in there. Another thing that I notice around skillful boundary setting is that when we actually do it, well, we don't need to justify the "no." And if we find ourselves needing to justify and explain, that probably means we still aren't clear on it. I see this all the time, where it's like, "Well, I can't really... I can't do that because I think it would be..." and usually it gets into all sorts of hedging language. And it usually means that we're still not fully comfortable advocating for our own needs, and seeing how actually standing in that place and setting that boundary serves ourselves and the relationship and the group. We're still kind of asking permission from the other person. We're still in that place of I don't want to disappoint you or let you down. If I could actually just say that doesn't work for me, without needing to... and then if they go – if they're curious– and they want to go, "Well, what wouldn't work about that for you?" then we can get into it. And if I can do that, then I'm probably in a solid place with it. And I'm not showing up either in resentment or either resentment either cases. So I think that getting to that with yourself about I don't need to justify or explain this... I have reasons I'm not doing this arbitrarily. But I don't need to explain them in order to feel it's okay for me to set this boundary. That's a place we really – when we can get to there, I think then we can really show up a lot more effectively.

Karen: 14:21

Yeah. And just as we move towards closing, I just want to be explicit about how broad this is. So we talked about it through the lens of setting schedules, but it can also be the style of meeting, a style of conversation, it can be participating in a particular part of the work or not, it can be taking on a task at all or not. It can be certain types of relational dynamics. I mean, I think it's okay to say you may be a person who goes quiet and goes off and does your own thing and doesn't engage and that might be great, but it doesn't work for me because I'm a person who needs that engagement. On the other side, I see that you're a person and it's probably in your culture that you're big and loud and you say things big and loud, and I can't bring myself to be present for that, which isn't true of me, but it is true for certain people. And being able to say, it may be work I need to do, but I haven't done it yet and I can't. Like that's not going to work for me. And so even in sort of relational spaces, if we can take responsibility, it doesn't have to come from a blame. It just comes from this is a boundary for me about what works for me really broadly. If it doesn't feel like it's working, probably it's time to set a boundary around it.

Paul: 15:41

Well, and it's also then kind of recentering the "us." As you were talking, I was thinking of a conversation I was having with a client this week, where this person was saying, "I feel like I go into these conversations and stuff needs to happen. There needs to be follow up. We discuss things, we have a bunch of ideas. That's great, but now action needs to be taken. And I'm noticing that I don't have the bandwidth to take it. And the other person seems to really be expecting me to do it." And so it was actually about – and so we explored, like, what are your options here? And so I said, here's the thing, like, one thing you can say is, "If you if you expect me to take this, it's not going to happen." Just being transparent about it. But that doesn't mean you then have to say, "So you have to." Because your option is to say, "I can't; here's what's likely to occur. Can you?" If the other person says, "I can't either," then we go, "Cool. What can we do? How do we brainstorm around this?" That doesn't mean I'm relaxing the boundary, that I'm giving up and saying, "Okay, fine. Well, if you can't do it, I will." It means committing to us together to figure – because you may also have a boundary about this. And that's where the negotiating part happens. It's not me justifying that I can't take it. But it is the "So given that this is important to both of us that it happen, what might we do together?" And that's actually where you want it, where we want to get to in that space of figuring out, are we willing to meet then? Who can take this" Any of these types of, of things that you were talking about.

Karen: 17:21

Yeah. So just to kind of sum up, I want to bring in our favorite words. We're talking about boundaries and what I'm willing to do. And it's the self-knowledge, the asking ourselves, the vulnerability of then sharing that out, and the curiosity of what does that mean for us and a willingness to explore it? And it's, that's probably the summary of every episode. But within this boundaries, that's essentially what we're saying is that it's really important to do the work to be clear about what am I willing to do – whether it's setting a time or a certain type of meeting, or whatever the context is – being willing to share that quite possibly, with just a "I'm not willing to do that" without a whole lot of explanation. And where it's appropriate to share that explanation and use that space to build the relationship, to get really curious about what that does to the relationship, what it does to the work, how it lands for the other person, and what we can do to change or adjust or fix or whatever we need to do with that and where we can go with it. And that in the end, that boundary setting will result in stronger relationships and less resentful people.

Paul: 18:33

That's gonna do it for us for today. Until next time, I'm

Karen: 18:36

And I'm Karen Gimnig. And this has been Employing Paul Tevis. Differences.