Employing Differences, Episode 13: Why don't we name differences?

Paul: 0:02

Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

Karen: 0:12

I'm Karen Gimnig,

Paul: 0:14

and I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: 0:17

Each episode we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is"Why don't we name differences?"

Paul: 0:26

Why don't we name differences? You know, it's interesting. We talk about how there's great wisdom to be found in the differences between people. The reason why we call the show Employing Differences is because we believe that's a great source of innovation, of creativity, of relational space, and it's a tremendous thing to tap. And also we have a tendency to not name differences, because I think in some cases there's a cultural component to it. We've been told don't point out that people are different or don't point out this thing is different in some way. So for some of us, we've certainly been raised that you can point out certain things and not others. There is a story in R obin D eAngelo's book"White Fragility" where she sort of illustrates t hat. She talks about being in a supermarket and there's a mother and a child there and the child looks over and the child sees a Black man in the supermarket, and the mother and the child are white. And the child says,"Mom, that man is Black." And the mom says,"Don't say that." And in the book, Robin DeAngelo's points out if the child had said"That man is handsome," the mom wouldn't have reacted the same way. So there a re certain things that w e're taught in our different cultures that it's okay to point out differences and other differences that it's not okay to talk about. And the problem is that when we don't talk about them, we can't actually work with them.

Karen: 2:04

Yeah. And I think most of us at this point in the culture have had the experience of naming a difference and having people be offended by that when, when we didn't intend offense and didn't realize that what we were saying would be offensive in some ways. I think that comes from a couple of places. I think some of it has to do with the sort of culture and history of people, who certainly relative to race– which as we're recording this, there are riots happening around the country related to race, so we're very conscious today about race examples– but it happens about other things, too. If I grew up as a child, being criticized, being judged, being left out, being even punished possibly for some in me. And then you point to it, I'm going to feel attacked by that regardless of your intention. That's one of the dynamics to work with is"What do we do about that?"

Paul: 3:15

Yeah. That idea, that unintended harm. I don't think anything of it when I point out this difference and it is somehow meaningful and significant and painful to you. And then we might not interact very skillfully around that.

Karen: 3:34

Yep. So I think one of the pieces about what to do about this is to create a culture in which when someone's not comfortable, it's okay to say so. So if I'm the receiver of a comment, if someone's named a difference and I'm not comfortable with it, that my response, rather than being,"You said a horrible racist or judgmental or nasty thing, and you should never have said that." If instead I can respond with,"Wow, I'm really uncomfortable with how you said that," and I'm really curious where that's coming from. Then a conversation happens out of that and both people partner around it, that there's been a hurt here and we both take responsibility for what we brought to making it happen and have enough of a sense of relationship that we can say,"Okay, we're going to start from the assumption that you weren't trying to attack me. And that when I say I feel attacked or I feel hurt, or I'm disturbed by that, that you're also assuming that I'm not trying to attack you, but that doesn't make the hurt any less real or the need for sorting it out any less."

Paul: 4:49

Right. There's a place there of actually committing to work through that difficulty. One of the things that can be really useful is for us to have an understanding that when I say something that is in some way hurtful to you, I know that you're going to name without blaming. You're going to name what you're feeling. You're going to name the effect that that has on you and not necessarily blame me for doing it, but you're going to make me aware of it. Now I can engage my curiosity and go,"Oh, wow, okay. I want to like, help me understand that a little bit better so that I can change my behavior in the future so that I can understand it." And I think because we are not used to those kinds of conversations happening, instead our loss aversion kicks in and we go,"Oh, if I named this, this might get awkward and painful. So I'm not going to name this difference. I'm going to talk around it. I'm going to get really indirect. Because I'm worried that things might blow up and that we won't handle it." Because we have an experience of people not handling it well. I think that's one of the big reasons why we don't name differences. It also points to how we can lean into that a little bit and how can we overcome that.

Karen: 6:10

Yup. I think the other piece is just consciousness of how much judgment we do bring to differences. That's a place where I think we really have a cultural piece– I mean, we grew up in schools where we got put in order by our academic success. We got put in order by age. Most of those things that we got ordered by were pointing to differences that had values attached. That this end of the line is better and this end of the line is worse. So when we say,"Oh, look, you got better grades than that person," or"You got a better test score" or often even things like"You're taller" or"You're thinner," or"You're happier," that what we were saying is"You are better." So much of how we compliment children is in comparatives that anything that is a comparison judges their value as a person. That is built into the way that we language things and the way that we think about things. And so just being really thoughtful about that and noticing within ourselves– okay, where am I seeing a difference and being curious about how we employ that difference to further the team, and where do I have some underlying judgment and getting curious about it. And sometimes being really explicit."So, you know, I'm noticing something that's different here, and I really want to say, I'm not looking for better or worse. I'm just wondering about this difference." So for example, I work with another gal, and she's theoretically my supervisor on this project, but we know that if it's testing links to make sure which one works, she is really thorough and good at that, and we're going to let her do that because that's what she's really good at. If we need a creative writing piece, that's me and that's where my strength is. And because we've developed the safety around that, we are able to say those things to each other and go,"Yep, that's me to do that's yours to do." You know, that kind of thing. But a lot of that's around language that could be really hurtful if it's framed in a different way. And sometimes the framing isn't in the language, even as much as the tone, sometimes we're not real conscious of it. But just getting really curious about, am I bringing up that childhood prioritizing or ordering or valuing differences, or am I really in my own head, in a space of,"I'm just noticing there's these two different things, what are we going to do about that?"

Paul: 8:53

And sometimes when you're in that space of just the noticing the other person hears the comparison, because that's their frame of mind, that's their cultural background, that's where they're coming from. And we to go back to they get offended by that."Well, why would you say that?" I'm like,"Hold on, let's back up." But yeah, comparison is something that happens all the time, even when we don't intend it to. We do the comparison without realizing it. Other people hear the comparison when we may not intend it. I think that is one of the things that also provokes the not necessarily great and useful responses. I think that the third piece of why we don't point out differences is the kind of thing that underlies both of these, which is that we haven't created enough safety to feel safe, to point out those differences. There's a kind of relational space– it's a vulnerable move to say,"Hey, I'm g oing t o point this thing out." Because I'm opening myself up to the possibility of some sort of danger o r backlash or something like that. It's a vulnerable move to do it, and if we're not feeling safe enough to say that, then we're not g onna. And so there's a piece of creating a strong relational l ab to create the safety to know what is it okay for us to talk about, even if it's just slightly beyond the edge of what we might n or normally ordinarily talk about, because we need to.

Karen: 10:34

Yeah. You know, I love it when I see teams that are able to say,"You know, I'm really glad you said that, and it made me totally uncomfortable. Can we talk about that? Like,"I'm glad that's out. And I don't like what you said." That those things can both be there, and you can celebrate what's happening in the team, which is now we get to work through. Because I think you were talking earlier about how we so often say,"Well, I'm just not going to say it because it's not safe." What I want to add to that is that the person that you're with notices that you just dodged vulnerability and that doesn't feel good to them either. Like it's not as safe as we think it is. Like there is that relational– and we're really good as humans at going"There was something he wanted to say that he didn't say," and then I make up the story about what that was or why he didn't say it. So there are layers and layers of what happens– almost usually unconsciously– about this. So again, it's the theme that we talk about over and over again: getting conscious about it and having safe spaces to say it.

Paul: 11:46

The thing that I want to point at in what you said there is that we may not be aware that we're dodging it and the other is. We're so good at that. I was having a conversation with someone yesterday who at three points during the conversation, got to the point of saying,"So, you know, what's really important about this is..." And then there was a dot, dot, dot, and a topic change. And I pointed it out at one point and this person was totally unaware that they'd done it. When we don't talk about those things, when we veer away from them, we might think that we are doing it skillfully or that we are preventing discomfort or that we're doing it like that. But the people around us can tell more often than not.

Karen: 12:35

And then that triggers their concerns for safety. So, and I think the piece I want to really lean into with this is that it only takes one person in the room to notice and shift and the whole thing shifts. So if there's one person willing to say,"You know, I think there's something not being said here," or"I think there was an offense that happened," or,"You know, I have a sense that..." and bring it up, that usually will open up so the conversation can begin to happen.

Paul: 13:08

And I will build on that slightly. Recognize who's the safest person in the room to say it, and if that's you, you should say it.

Karen: 13:21

Yeah. So I think just to pull the threads together, what we're saying is that we tend not to name differences because it doesn't feel safe and it doesn't feel safe for good reasons. We have a culture that says comparison means value judgements. We have a culture that says it's not okay to point out differences, and it's incredibly vulnerable to be the one who breaks that cultural norm and names the difference. We think we're safer to dodge that and not name it. Almost always that's not as safe an option as we think it is. The real relational gold and the really deep collaborative space that's going to bring about the innovation and creativity that we want in these safe relationship spaces is to kindly but authentically name what's real for you in this moment. And whether that's,"I'm seeing a difference, I'm hoping it's not offensive to anyone. I want to name it."Or"I was really offended by what you just said. I'm glad you said it, cause we can talk about it." But in that bringing open and into consciousness those things that we tend to try and shut out of the way because they don't feel safe is gonna give us a better way of working together.

Paul: 14:36

Yeah. Well, that's going to do it for us today until next time. I'm Paul Tevis

Karen: 14:42

And I'm Karen Gimnig and this has been Employing Differences.