Employing Differences, Episode 18: Can they say "no"?

Karen: 0:02

Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

Paul: 0:15

I'm Paul Tevis,

Karen: 0:17

And I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul: 0:19

Each episode, we start with a question and we see where it takes us. This week's question is"Can they say no?"

Karen: 0:28

We're really pointing here to the tendency for people to feel like they have to say"yes" if you ask for something and the resulting tendency to not ask for something. So what we're wanting to sort of start with talking today about what is the ideal culture, what's the culture we're recommending that you aim for in your workplaces, in your communities. If you're trying to work together, it's incredibly useful to ask for what you want. This is a thing that would help me. This is a thing I would like. This is a thing that would make my life easier. This is a thing that would make me faster. Would you be willing to do this thing for me or do this thing to help me or do this thing for the project? Being able to ask that– we think– is hugely important and the only way that it's okay to ask it is if you have a culture in which it's okay to say no. So we're really pointing to that as the ideal.

Paul: 1:29

And the reason why we frame that as the ideal is we can imagine that there are some of you right now whose skin is crawling at the notion of asking for something that you want. Because– and we'll get to like how we can bridge that gap, but– we wanted to start by talking about why that's important and what is really useful, what happens when people are able to ask for things that they want and need and are able to hear a"no" and other people are able to say"no" to things. So one of the things that happens when you're able to do that, is that all sorts of things that are not visible otherwise become visible. When we don't ask for the things that we are noticing that would be useful, other people may not notice that they're needed, that those are there. We have a much less coherent shared picture of a situation when we're not asking for things that we need.

Karen: 2:32

Yeah. I think that's the key thing. And I think related to that is if I'm not asking for what I need, I can spend a lot of time frustrated that I'm not getting it while the person I'm trying to work with has absolutely no idea that that would be helpful. And I think probably most of us have had an experience at some point where it somehow became safer, it came up and, you know, and I said,"Man, it would just be so much easier if this thing could happen." And somebody else said,"Oh, well, yeah, sure. I can make that happen. Done." And you think, well, we should have figured that out a year ago, because I've been tripping over that for a year. It impacts the work and the effectiveness of the work. It also impacts the relationships because that underlying frustration and resentment colors everything else. So if we can get to really clean, transparent– what this leans into is authenticity, it leans into trust, it leans into safety. It reinforces that not only around just asking for things, but also giving feedback and being able to be authentic about,"This is the thing you're doing, that's not working for me." It just spreads across the whole culture. So this is a piece, but I think a particularly nuanced piece of high trust, high safety, high transparency.

Paul: 3:56

Yeah. So if it's so much more efficient and so much more trusting and relationally healthy and things get worked through before they become big problems, why don't we do it? Why are we talking about this as an ideal culture, as opposed to everyday culture?

Karen: 4:20

And I think on the list of experiences, we've probably all had another one is"I asked for something and they said, yes, and then they were pissed that I asked." They didn't really mean yes, because they didn't think they could say no. So this is back to that question of"Can they say no?" The flip side is"Why are you asking me for that?" and feeling attacked by the request, because something in me taught me that I wasn't allowed to say no. Or maybe something overt maybe my boss is asking and the culture is,"You don't say no to the boss ever."(I mean, I'm pretty sure the White House is a bit that way right now.) There are places where it really is"You can't say no." And so it doesn't take very much of that for us to decide that asking for what you want or saying no when someone asks for what they want, either of those are hugely vulnerable acts that may very well not pay off.

Paul: 5:20

Yeah. Yeah. There's some conversations that I have been part of previously, people have talked about Ask Culture and Guess Culture. We're sort of brought up in one of two broad cultural sorts of things. One of them is"Ask for what you want and people will say no if they can't do that or don't want to do that." The other is sort of Guess Culture, which is where you are expected to guess at what other people need and want, because if they actually asked it would create an obligation upon you and it would be rude of you to say no. And so it's impolite. So you have to sort of guess at what people really want or will really need. One of the things that happens is that when people who have grown up in those two different cultures interact, they send all sorts of weird signals at each other, where you get into that position of like,"Well, if you've always wanted that, why didn't you ask?""Why didn't you know?!?"

Karen: 6:25

Yep, yep. And the skill sets associated with each culture are different too. In Ask Cultures, people are good at being clear. Like"This is the thing that I want." In Guess Cultures, people are good at guessing. They get good at intuiting what is that other person's comfort likely to be? They don't–I don't think– get good enough at it that it's a good way to go, but they do get better at it. They expect you to be better. They get frustrated with the folks who haven't developed that good guess skill.

Paul: 6:55

Yeah. It's absolutely two different sets of skills that you build through practice. I think there's another reason why we may not ask for the things that we want is we may not be able to hear a"no." When we're in that place of, we only ask for things when we need people to say yes, then we do create an obligation on other people to say yes. That's another case where they can't say no. There are certainly people who I've worked with where I know they only ever came to me to ask for something when they really, really, really needed it, and it was hugely vulnerable for them to say that, and I felt like I had to say yes to those things. Now I would often reframe that in my head where it's like,"Wow, this is really important to you. I know that from my interactions with you, I am going to move heaven and earth to be able to say yes to this." But I'm making that as a deliberate choice. I am choosing to do that rather than feeling obligated to do it. That changes the emotional tenor of the interaction and the relationship, because it feels very different when I'm interacting with someone who is obligated to say yes to me, versus someone who is choosing to say yes, even though it is difficult.

Karen: 8:19

Yeah. And I think what we're moving toward here is that, you know, a lot of the things that we talk about in the other Employing Differences episodes are things that we would recommend just do this thing. Like this is a good thing, go ahead and start implementing it. It will gradually make things better in your team. And this is one that's more nuanced than that, for sure. We'd like to see you move toward it. We absolutely think that an Ask Culture is a useful culture for a team. Um, and if that's not the culture you're in this actually might be a case where getting too vulnerable in is just asking for trouble. And so I think where Paul was beginning to go and I want to go further into is: So we're not telling you always to ask for what you want, do pay attention to what the culture is that you're in. But also if the thing that you find when you pay attention to the culture is,"Wow, this isn't a place where I can ask," or"This isn't a place where I can say no," either or both of those, then what are the things that we can do to change that? Like that's not the ideal, so what are ways to shift it? And Paul, you just gave one that's around reframing the"yes" from the required automatic"yes" that's mandatory, to an ownership"yes" of this is really authentically where I am with your ask. I hear that it's really important to you. I want you to feel totally safe in having asked, and this is how I'm going to engage with it kind of thing. That kind of transparency that just shifts the dialogue a little bit is one example. I wonder if you have others, you're thinking of, of relatively safe shifts.

Paul: 10:06

Yeah. So I will ask for things a lot. There are still things that I won't– it's been a slow shift for me to be able to ask for those sorts of things. I also recognize that I may not be creating a dynamic where someone says no to me. There are all kinds of dynamics that can influence that. There can be certainly power dynamics in organizations. If you're a manager, how many times has one of your reports said no to you? Recognize that that's at play and what are the things that you can do to make it safer to say no. And so I will do a lot of things where– I will sometimes start by saying"So, no is a perfectly good answer to this question. I'm wondering if you would be willing to..." and then ask the thing. Now that means that I need to be okay with a no. So there's two pieces in there. One is first personally get okay with the no. Second, broadcast that it is okay to say no. And then the third thing that I'll sometimes do with that is check in repeatedly:"Are you sure you're okay with this? Like, you know, I can go do this other thing instead. If this doesn't happen, I'm okay with that." If I know that I'm in a culture or a situation where the other person has a lot of reasons not to say no."

Karen: 11:37

I want to point to one more thing that you modeled, but didn't pull out explicitly, which is the language with which the question is asked. A really direct ask like,"will you?" Will tend to bring up the old patterns. You used the language"Would you be willing to?" Another frame is,"Would it work for you?""Would it be convenient for you?" And all of that, you can run right over the top of with tone and culture. But I do think that the choice of the words, particularly as Paul said, if you mean it really authentically. What I want to know is would you be willing to. Not can I make you do it. Not can I trick you. Not can I force you. Not quite can I coerce you, but I really want to know, is, would you be willing, would this work for you? Is this something that you can do happily and with intention and feeling good about without it harming our relationship? That's actually the ask. And I think both the getting clear that that's where I am in myself when I ask it, and that I use the words that portray that, matters a lot. And then I also think the thing that you did point to is the really explicit. Just say it."I know it's not usually our culture around here for us to say no when someone asks for something and I just really want you to hear that. It's okay with me for you to say no." I've even gone so far as to say to someone,"If you say no, this time, that gives me permission to ask you for a thing the next time that tells me that it's safe and that I'm not getting coercing, or in other ways, getting you to do stuff that you don't want to do. So no is actually a freeing answer for me."

Paul: 13:20

Yeah. There's a trap that some of us– by which I mean me and other people– fall into– that's the inclusive us, not the exclusive us– thinking that saying no to the request is saying no to the relationship. Recognizing– and this is a saying no part, this is the other side, when someone asks me for something,"Hey, would you like to work together on this project? Can I count on you to do a thing?" When someone asks me,"Would you like to work together on this project?" It may be true that I would like to. And also I'm looking at my schedule and my calendar and just going, there's no way. And if I look at my priorities and what's important to me right now, it doesn't fit. And so I have to find a way to be able to say no to the request and say yes to the relationship. So that's partly on me to be able to say,"I would love to work with you right now. And I'm feeling really overwhelmed with all of this other work. Could we talk about what that might look like to see if we could find a way?" When I'm asking for someone, I need to create a way for them to say no to the request and yes to the relationship. And so saying things like,"I won't think any less of you if you say no to this." Saying,"If you say no to this, this is not going to end, this not going to be the last time that we have the possibility of doing something." So that's another thing, you know, both sides of that are important. When you're making the request, kind of making the space for people to be able to say no to their request and yes to the relationship can make it possible so that they actually can say no.

Karen: 15:08

Yeah. What comes up for me hearing you say that is just the memory of how you and I figured out that we could do some things together. I remember very clearly, I think the first thing you said to me in that regard is"You're a person I want to do something with," or"You're a person I want to work with," with total transparency. You didn't know what that looked like. I certainly didn't know what that looked like. And we just sort of started talking and, and we really didn't get further than we're going to put a date on the calendar to keep talking, because, because in those conversations we did sort of throw things out and say no in various ways. Um, and I think we were both at a point where we we'd done the work internally, prior to meeting each other, that we could both arrive with that. And, and we very quickly, I think, got to a place where there was really high trust and really a lot of comfort. And even with that, we still say to each other fairly frequently,"If this thing that we're working on, isn't working for you. It's okay to ask for a change." It's okay to say, wait, we need to push out that timeline. Or can we renegotiate that piece so that the no is always invited between us both explicitly and just within the culture.

Paul: 16:22

And the thing that points to is,"How do you know that they can say no?" When they do. When"no"s are actually happening, when things are being said no to, then you know that they can.

Karen: 16:38

Yup. So I want to do just a quick summary of where we've traveled. First, the ideal culture is one in which people ask for the things that they want and feel safe doing it. And they say"no" to the things that should be"no"s and they feel safe doing it. That's not often the culture. It's certainly not the mainstream culture. Most of us grew up in, so we're advising caution about where you do that vulnerable thing of showing up in those ways and that you look for strategies to shift the culture toward having safety for that. Being explicit that"no" is okay, doing the personal work so that"no" really is okay, framing the requests in ways, but also practicing saying"no" and looking for alternatives so that it's not"yes" but it's not a rejection of the relationship, so that you're maintaining the trust and safety throughout.

Paul: 17:31

Yeah. So that's going to do it for us for today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: 17:38

And I'm Karen Gimnig and this has been Employing Differences.