Employing Differences

Employing Differences, Episode 52: How do I make them cut it out?

May 11, 2021 Karen Gimnig & Paul Tevis
Employing Differences
Employing Differences, Episode 52: How do I make them cut it out?
Show Notes Transcript

"One of the valuable places we can get to is when we notice a thing out here that's causing some discomfort in us to get curious about what that is. We might learn something about what's going on out here. We also might learn something about ourselves in the process."

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Karen:

Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

Paul:

I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen:

And I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul:

Each episode we start with a question and we see where it takes us. This week's question is, "How do I make them cut it out?"

Karen:

We we put that sort of colloquial language in there on purpose to indicate that we're particularly interested in when we're irritated, triggered, bothered by whatever that behavior is. I've been in meetings recently with someone who just talks incessantly, interrupts people, and it's so good-hearted I mean, it's totally not a dominating type of personality at all, but it does drive me nuts. And I just want to make him cut it out, I just do. And so what do we do when there's a behavior that we would like to see changed, when we very much want to maintain the relationship, so we don't want to insult or blame or shame, but we really would like the thing to change. And also, we're so triggered that I don't know about you when you're triggered but when I'm triggered, I can come up with all sorts of versions of "no shame" language that are shaming in the extreme. My filter on what is actually a kind, or non-shaming kind of language is just shot because I'm so triggered. So what do you do, Paul?

Paul:

And it's those moments where we most need to be the best versions of ourselves that we are least capable of doing it. I've been in those moments. You're right. So there's two things we want to tease apart here, right? It is both the case that we are asking this person to change their behavior or we are pointing out that their behavior is having a particular impact. We're doing that because we believe it's actually having a detrimental effect on the group, on the relationship, on the situation, whatever it is. We believe that they would get a better result, that the group would get a better result if they were to make a shift in their behavior. And that's the place that we're sort of coming from on this. The layer on top

of that is:

it also annoys us personally. It triggers us personally, there's something about it. And I think the first step is actually recognizing that both are happening. Because I think sometimes we fool ourselves into thinking, "Well, I'm just making this request because it's for the best interest of the group," or "I'm pointing this out for them." And not recognizing that a big chunk of the reason that we feel the need to take action about it is because it impacts us. Because it annoys us personally. So first, recognize that both are true, and have some compassion for yourself about the fact that you are annoyed by this, that you are irritated by this. And in a lot of ways, de-trigger yourself first. Whatever it is that you have in your practice, whatever it is that you do to help yourself cope with and work effectively with those things, do that. There's a large piece of giving somebody feedback, that's about recognizing if we are in a place to even do it. And the better we can get at that at that sort of self-soothing, at that de-triggering ourselves the better and faster we can get that, the more effective we can actually be at then actually giving the feedback.

Karen:

Yeah, and I want to say a little bit about strategies for all of that. So I think one of the really important things that you said is, "We don't realize it." And and part of why we don't realize it is because we're really good at giving it a different story. So we're really good at saying it's good for the group, or it's good for something else. And this goes back to the conversations we've had in other episodes about we don't like to be needy, we don't like to ask for things like that kind of frame, we're in that again. And this is a particular version of it, where I'm just irritated as I'll get out and I don't like it. "But that's not a good enough reason to ask someone else to change," I tell myself. I want to be clear that I think it is a good enough reason to give some feedback and make a request but we tell ourselves it's not. So we go into this other story of the group needs it, or you know, or it's just inappropriate behavior. We get that judgy language attached again. But all of that is protective. All of that is defensive to keep me from having to be vulnerable. And, and since it's so built-in, and I don't notice I'm doing it, I would say that if you are thinking about giving someone feedback, especially if the thought has come across your brain that you would just like them to cut it out, a really good first step is to check in with somebody else. This could be you know, some other team member, this could be someone

totally outside:

your therapist, your best friend you walk with, you know, there are lots of resources for that. But just talk through it, and ask that person for feedback for yourself to say, "I'm not happy about this, I'm telling myself, it's the thing the group needs, you know, is that what's really going on here? Or how much of me is in this?" And really get that discernment that that, Paul, you were saying, let's do this first. And I'm going to say,"Yes, and do that first even if you don't yet realize that you need to do that." So that you can sort of get that filter of what is the thing I actually want? Where is it really coming from? And then I think it's super important for us to work on shifting the story that if I'm the only one bothered by it, it doesn't matter. Because I'm part of this system. And if I'm bothered, I'm bothered. And I get to say so in a kind, responsible like a taking responsibility for I'm bothered. I'm not saying that's a problem for anybody else. I'm saying I'm bothered.

Paul:

There's two ways that I want to go with that. The first is, I think, absolutely, like, doing some some validation around this is valuable. And that's actually where I think it can be really useful, like when you're working in a group finding out, "Is it just me?" Because it is useful to be able to talk to somebody else about something, but they're also only experiencing the situation through your filtered version of it. If you're actually able to ask somebody else who's been in the meeting, who's been in the thing, like, "Hey, I noticed this thing. Have you noticed that too?" To get that confirmation, right? And then they say, "Yeah, and I just really wish they would cut it out." Right now, you really know. So being able to find out is it just me even if it is just me, it can be useful to bring up because as you point out, you're a part of the system. Something we sometimes say in the group coaching work that I do, we talk about being voices of the system. Oftentimes what's happening in group is personal and not just personal. I need to also treat whatever I'm experiencing, as there's a distinct possibility that other people in the group are also experiencing that. And I want to validate that. So that's one part. I think it's useful to find out, you know, is it more than just me? Even it is just me, it's probably useful to say something around that. And then the second part is that I will sometimes add that actually on to when I'm talking with the person about this behavior. To just say to own my part of it to say, "So I want to let you know, this is something that I'm particularly aware of, or particularly sensitive to, because of my experience with blah. I want to let you know, this is a thing that I'm seeing." Right? If you can own that part of if you can own your reaction to the behavior but still be clear about what the behavior is, that can actually kind of help you're putting a lantern on it, you're kind of saying, "Yeah, I know, I can be a little judgy about this. Also, this thing is here." If you can tease that apart, both in your own mind, but also when you're talking with the person about it, when you're actually letting them know,"This was the behavior and this is the impact not just on me, but on others as well," that can actually help you to be cleaner about giving them the information they need. Because so often in these situations, the person is doing this thing in a completely habitual way, in a way that they're totally unaware of, in a way that's been successful for them in the past, and it just isn't working in this situation.

Karen:

I think that's so true. And I do want to give a little bit of a caution about both the talking to others there is a big difference between talking to someone else and saying,"This is the thing that I'm seeing that I'm thinking about what I want to do about it and I'd like you to work that with me," as opposed to the gossipy, over lunch, "Yeah, he did it again. Wasn't that awful God, you know, we really just hate this." There's this sort of slippery slope, because there's also a piece in the middle there somewhere of, "We know that behavior isn't going to change, and we're stuck with it, and so we share it to tolerate it." We can be okay with this because we have a chance to go, "Yep, that irritates me again. You too? Yep. Okay, now I'm good." But there is this place where it becomes really negative gossip, where it's talking about them behind their back in a way that's actually really damaging and breaks trust, even if they never hear it because other people hear it. And so I think that piece is important. And, and then also the reporting,"This seems to be happening for other people as well." Again, if it's useful information, which it can be, and you want to be careful, but if the reason you're saying it is because my voice isn't enough, and now I've got, "I am more powerful, because I agree with the majority, and that means you're wrong," which is totally a dynamic we do, then it's not going to work relationally the way we want it to.

Paul:

Yeah, I totally agree with that. There's a thing that I sometimes tell groups is that my job is to help you to talk with each other more than you talk about each other. And that's really that that gossip piece, right? Where it's just like, I'd like to get some independent confirmation to this and then I'm going to take action. I'm actually going to go talk to that person. And not from a place of "We're ganging up against you." I totally agree with you on that where it's like oftentimes, for me, what I just really need is an understanding of "Is this my own overreaction to it?" Particularly when I'm coming in as an outsider and this is a behavior that everybody else is okay with from a deep level, not just like, "We tolerate it." But sometimes it's like, "Oh, actually, we value that behavior because of this thing." I want to make sure I'm not imposing my own values, my own assumptions onto a situation, particularly when I'm new to it, when I'm not part of the group, when I'm an outsider. That's where I want to have some perspective that's outside of my own head. Once I know, "Oh, yeah, other people feel similarly to me about this," I'm pretty much never gonna say, "and everybody else agrees with me," when I'm talking with somebody. That really just gives me the confidence that maybe I shouldn't need, but to be able to say, "I feel comfortable saying this, because I know that it's not just my story that I'm telling myself about what this is." I'm able to state it more clearly and cleanly, but still from my own perspective.

Karen:

Yeah, yeah. And I think one of the outcomes of this oddly might be that you end up deciding you don't need them to cut it out. Either because of what you were just saying of"there was a value to that behavior that I wasn't seeing." But it also might be that the thing that's triggering in me was all about me and was the thing that was ready to grow and shift, and that when I got a chance to sort of talk through it and think about it, and "Why does that bother me so much?" And I go, "Oh, yeah, I don't want it to bother me so much." Like, it's not causing any harm in the relationship. It's not actually doing a bad thing to me. But whatever it's bringing up for me, how about I go work that out elsewhere, and use this as a chance to practice not being triggered by that type of behavior, whatever that is. So I think that one of the warnings of this work is, if you go about following our advice for how you can make them cut it out, the answer might be you decide you don't need to.

Paul:

It is, I think, one of the really valuable places we can get to is when we notice a thing out here that's causing some discomfort in us to get curious about what that is. Because we might learn something about what's going on out here. But we also might learn something about ourselves in the process. And recognizing that that reaction is a combination of the both: what we bring to the situation, who we are, our perspectives, our history, all of our all of our baggage; and also what's going on out here. Recognizing what part we bring to it and then deciding how we want to work with it means that we're much more likely to actually get a result that everybody is happy with and is willing to work with.

Karen:

Yeah, and I think the way that I see this playing out in a kind of ideal situation is that Paul's got this habit that drives me crazy. And I go off and I talk to somebody else who knows Paul about it and get a little reality check on it. And yeah, you know, it is a thing that I really would like Paul to stop doing. It's partly my baggage maybe, but it's not just my baggage. And I'd really like him to stop doing and so I bring it up with Paul and say, "You know, I've got some feedback I'd like to give you. Would you be open to that? Is this a good time?" I'll put that piece in there, so that Paul has some chance to get present and ready for that. And then Paul and I have this conversation where I explain what the behavior is and how it's landing for me, totally owning that that's my response to it, but with a request for,"Would Paul be willing to change this?" And hopefully, Paul then says, "Huh, let me think about why I do that thing." And often the answer to your earlier point about how we do it because it's habitual, and we don't even know we're doing it, There's a fair chance Paul would say, "Yeah, I'm totally happy to change that, but I bet I won't ever know that I do it." So you can even work through, what's our plan, so that we can collaborately shift that, so that we can have a way to work together? And Paul can, know I'm not gonna get furious every time he slips back into his old pattern. And I can know that every time he does that thing, he's not trying to have the negative impact on me that that, in fact, it does. And we can both sort of have this growth space where Paul shifts a pattern and get some awareness about it and can choose now actively when to engage that behavior and when not to in the future. And I get better at not being triggered, because honestly, triggered is rarely a useful state I mean, it's there for a reason, but most of the time in relationships, we'd just as soon not be so we both get some practice around a thing and we both become better team players, and we get a stronger relationship out of it.

Paul:

The last piece that I'll add to this ginormous ball of advice that we're giving is,"Don't wait too long." The problem is that when you get to that whole, "I want them to cut it out" phase, you've probably waited a little long to give them that feedback and that information. I have a note in front of me, which is I think originally a quote from Brene Brown that says, "Resentment is a sign that you haven't said something." And so if I feel that building up inside of me, it's likely to come out in a really unskillful way. So the more I can tune in to when that's just a little itch, and a little irritation, and start to explore what talking about that actually looks like, the better chance I have of actually being one of the better versions of myself when I have that conversation, then if I wait. If I just keep waiting, I'm probably getting to be a worse and worse version of myself when I have the conversation.

Karen:

Yep, and that it lands harder, because then when you give me the feedback, I'm like,"I've been doing that for 10 years, and you've never told me?" There's both elements of that. So I think just to do a very brief summary, what we're pointing to with this question about "How do I make them cut it out?" is, if you're feeling that notice your own triggering, use other resources to kind of do your own work first. Be willing to ask for what you want or need in a feedback kind of setting, and then expect there to be some growth, at least in myself, and maybe in us as a system and us as a relationship. There's going to be some vulnerable space in there. There's going to be a lot of curiosity driving it, and hopefully a lot of consciousness coming out on the other end.

Paul:

And expect the conversation won't be smooth, but won't be impossible either. Well, that's gonna do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen:

And I'm Karen Gimnig, and this has been Employing Differences.