Employing Differences, Episode 75: Are you interested in changing your behavior?

Paul: 0:09

Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

Karen: 0:15

I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul: 0:16

And I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: 0:19

Each episode, we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, "Are you interested in changing your behavior?"

Paul: 0:29

So I end up talking with a lot of people, both professionally and personally, who have found themselves in a conflict and I mean, they would not say it that way. They would say, "I got into an argument," "This person was mean to me," "Things didn't go well..." however it is that they describe a situation that that did not turn out the best and probably had some strong negative emotions going on in it. And I'm often torn when I'm listening to these, because I also usually have some other information. Maybe I have seen the interaction, maybe I'm familiar with the group or with the environment or things like that. And I'm torn, because I can see how this person feels that they were treated their sense of "These people were mean to me," or "This person didn't respect to me," or "I wasn't heard," or "I wasn't listened to," or all of these things. And I also can see how their behavior contributed in some way to that result. And where I get very conflicted is "What do I do about that?" If I want to help them, I don't want to just say,"Oh, you're right, that other person is terrible. It's all their fault. They were so mean to you." Because that's not true. It might help them feel a little bit better, but it's also unlikely to change things in the future. And so this question is always the one that I kind of want to ask, but I'm often afraid to, which is, "So are you interested in changing your behavior?"

Karen: 2:11

Yeah, yeah, the other place that comes up for me a lot and this happens a lot in my client work is we have this long standing conflict that's been around for years. And surely your way to start helping us with this is for you to meet with each of the parties involved, or at least each of the sides. That's my favorite. You need to meet with each of the sides, so that you can hear their perspectives. What that tells me is that they're very much sitting in the content of the thing. "This person did this that was wrong, and I did this, and then they reacted this way badly." And it's not a surprise that this is how Americans approach it. And I was a third grade teacher for a while. And at some point, I figured out that a significant part of my day was spent discerning who was the bad kid in this situation. Who was the one who had done the wrong thing? To whom should punishment be meted out? And so from children, certainly today's children, and I think, my generation of adults as children, there was a fair bit of a bad thing happened to me, I go tell the teacher, the parent, the nearby adult, and the nearby adult declares who was wrong, and that person is punished in some form or fashion. And maybe it's just that person's has to say they're sorry. I mean, there are a whole range, but that step one in solving the conflict is determining who was wrong. And as I have studied relationships, in recent years, I have flipped that intention entirely. And when working with children or even working with adults, but we'll stay in the childhood frame for the moment what I find is, the most important thing for me to do is avoid naming blame. Avoid passing judgment. When invited into the role of judge and jury to pass on that role entirely. And if I can, between the two children who have come to me asking for help with their problem or that's how I'm saying it. They're saying that they've came to me to complain, to tattle, to tell, but I'm going to interpret that as they would like help with their problem. And if I can facilitate them in really hearing each other, and getting some empathy and perspectives, what I find is as children they pick this up right away. "Right, that thing I did, yeah, that didn't work so good. Yeah, I shouldn't probably have done that." Often without even an apology. The apology turns out often not even to be the thing. But acknowleding, "Oh, I'm seeing a thing about my behavior that maybe I didn't see." And"Yep, what you say makes sense about that" in often child language that is shorter than anything an adult would come up with. And then they run off and play together. And I've seen that happen where parents were just dumbfounded that that could be the result, because that's not what happens if you get some adults to pass judgment. And I think, having learned that mechanism, the judgment mechanism as children, all that happens when we become adults, is we become the teachers. So now I get to pass judgment for myself about what happened in that situation. Because that's what I know how to do. What I know how to do is decide who was wrong. And now there's no ability to mete out punishment. So now it's just, I go, as you say, on my social media feed or somewhere and get lots of empathy for how that other person did the wrong thing. And this tends to cycle over and over and over again. And so when, as a consultant, I get adults who are very naturally exhibiting this pattern that we actually have institutionalized through our schools and various other places, it's absolutely in our culture. And then they come to me, and they want me to be the judge and jury and decide who was wrong and tell them whose behavior should change. And incidentally, the goal here is that it's anyone's but mine. Tell me whose behavior should change so that I can settle into I'm the one who's right here, and that other person needs to change their behavior. We're going to be stuck. That's not going to go anywhere. So the first question I want to ask and that is, "Are you you the person who's unhappy, you the person who's talking to me, you the person who's seeking help are you interested in changing your behavior?" Because that I can help.

Paul: 7:01

There's a number of times I've been pulled in to help with some conflict situations between two particular people and one person wants to pull me in. Usually the thing that I tell them is twofold. One, "I'm happy to do that, so long as the other person also is interested in having me involved in this." And two, "You should be aware that I will not be on your side." A lot of the work that I do around that is actually, "How can I be on the side of your relationship?" Actually, not of either of you, but the two of you together? So recognize the fact that I may be saying things in there that you might not like. Things like, "So what was your part in this? How did you contribute to this? What do you want to do about this?" And that often throws people, but it is a super useful thing. Because you're right, I think often, we ask for a third party to be involved, because we hope to get their votes. We want approval, we want them to pass a judgement that says, "Yes, you were right." And what I think I really like about this question of "Are you interested in changing your behavior?" that kind of sidesteps the question of who is at fault, and it sidesteps the question of blame. Now, I think where people get caught, is saying, "Well, why should I change? They're the ones who are to blame." And I think the place to go to that, the place to explore is this idea of, if we can set aside the question of who is to who is to blame, who is at fault here, it doesn't really matter. If you want to get a different result, what do you want to do? How might you approach that? One of the people I worked with years and years ago, he said he only need to three moves as a coach. One of the moves was, "Well, how's that working out for you?" There's a moral standpoint of,"Well, they're at fault, they should change." "Well, how's that working out for you?" From a practical standpoint, you can't make them change. The only person's behavior you can control is your own. So if you want out of the situation, what do you want to do differently? And I find that I have a way easier time in on that when I'm brought in a in a professional capacity, because I really have permission to push on that. Where I really struggle with it is when it's friends and family. It's personal relationships where I want to help them because they see the pattern. When you sit outside of it, and you just see it again and again and again, you go, "Oh, I really want to help" But going back to something we talked about recently, "I don't know if my help is going to be helpful here." But I do think that like coming back to that place of just seeing. Because if they're not up for changing their behavior, then there's not really anything that I can do. I'm not gonna be able to help in that situation.

Karen: 10:10

I think that makes a lot of sense. And I'll play with the words a little bit about being"on your side." That's a really interesting concept. And for me that being on your side means being on the side of you getting what you want out of this. And so that's another place where I start is, "What is it that you're looking for here?" And if you're looking for that other person's behavior to change, I probably don't have a lot of help for you. There's probably not a ton of other than to say if you change your behavior, that will change the system, and they will respond differently. But if the goal is I'm going to keep doing exactly what I've always done, and behaving like I always have and change their behavior, I'm betting that's not happening. At least not in any ongoing pattern-based way. But if I'm really on your side in the sense of being with you, helping you get what you want, that oddly comes off almost exactly the opposite, as you described, which is if I'm sitting one on one with one person who's in conflict with somebody else whether or not I'm ever going to talk to the other person if I'm on your side, I am very likely helping you begin to see how you're impacting, what your impact is on the other side, or what the intention coming from the other side might have been that you didn't notice. And I've had people in that say, "Well, how some you're on their side?" And my answer is, "I'm not." Actually if I'm talking to you, I am on your side, that's kind of how I operate. But I'm on your side in the sense of helping you make the change that you want to make. When I talk to them, I'll tell them what they can change, because that's where it will make a difference. But if I'm talking to you, I'm going to have the frame of, "I can help you figure out what you can do in this situation." And if you're not actually interested in that, then it's probably good for me to figure that out early on.

Paul: 12:16

There's there's this idea in coaching, that we can only coach whoever's in the room. You're here. They're not. This is what we've got to work with. One of things you talked about in there is the feeling, the person saying, "Well, you're on their side." And I think oftentimes, when we're in that space of helping people, and they know that we actually are intending to help them they can feel that we can say things that the person that they were in a conflict with couldn't say without triggering further conflict. That we can potentially bring those things out. I think it's important to have permission to do that. So I think where I stumble often is I jump to that spot where I just go, "Okay, cool. Well, if you want to move forward with this, here's what you need to do." And they're like, "Hold on, I didn't actually agree that I wanted that help yet." Like, "I could just use some reassurance thatI'm not the only person who thinks the thing that I think." I think that another important part about that is you do actually have to establish that you want to help them. That you actually want to help them move forward, get something useful out of this, even if their tactics for getting it may not be the thing that you're going to support. But I think until you have that, it's hard to ask about "Are you willing to change?" Because otherwise that question of are you willing to change your behavior can sound like an attack. It can sound like blame. It can sound like that they're in the wrong."

Karen: 14:10

Yeah, and I think it's way trickier as you said, with friends and family kinds of spaces, or, or even honestly, as a consultant I had somebody the other day forward an email that someone else had written that was probably not great for community relationships. And I so wanted to reach out to that person the person who sent it, not the one who sent it to me the one who sent it out because I do have a relationship there, but I have to have a way in. I have to have some engagement, some interest. I was writing back to the person who forwarded it to me, offering some encouragement and saying,"If you want to engage with this, or if there's a way for me to get engaged, let me know." But it is that piece about what is a person looking for. And it is totally legitimate to say,"Right now in this moment, my feelings are hurt, and I just want reassurance I want to feel better. I'm not in that emotional self workplace." we don't spend 24/7 even people like Paul and I, who drink this stuff for breakfast and love it, do not spend 24/7 in the space of being available and ready for tough personal growth and looking at ourselves. And so I think there is a discernment piece about both for me, if I'm in it, what am I looking for? What am I asking for? What am I wanting out of this? And also for if I'm going to jump in and determine about where is that person? Both sort of globally, where are they in general? Are they the sort of person that is interested in this? And also, is this the moment for that? And is my relationship with them the space where that can happen? And I do think there's space for,"You know I'm your best friend here. And I am always in support of you and always caring about you. And I think you're having an impact here that's not working for you. Are you open to talking to me about that?" And there's also a space for, "I think what you're asking for here is just a lot of sympathy. Is that where you're at? I'm totally on board with that? Cup of tea here some chocolate."

Paul: 16:29

Yeah. The last thin I want to add to that, I think that the the place where it's very useful to get to before asking the question of, are people interested in changing their behavior is not just that space of sitting on the outside seeing the pattern, but also turning up the empathy and actually being able to sit next to them. To see where are they really at? Where are they coming from? Because if I'm sitting on the outside going, "You need to change your behavior," that's actually a place of judgment. I need to have the perspective that I can see how their behavior is contributing to a result they don't want. And also I need to be in the space of being able to sit with them, to see where they're coming from with that. What is it they're trying to do? What is their experience been? How are they sensing and experiencing that? And to have them feel like yeah I am sitting next to them, because otherwise I do just turn into somebody else on the outside arguing with them, and telling them that they're wrong. So I think you have to be able to do both. Not just to sit with them, and not just to be able to sit outside, but actually to be able to hold both of those at the same time is the space I think where you can actually be helpful.

Karen: 17:55

So to kind of wrap us up this question of are you interested in changing your behavior really points to our tendency as a culture to first look for judgment and very much to first look for what I wish the other person would change. And if we actually want things to change, we got to look at where we have influence, which is with ourselves, or in the case of a consultant with the person who's sitting in front of us and get curious about not hat should that person give in r trade in or sacrifice, but hat is that person's best trategy or tactic or approach oward getting the thing that hat person wants? And usually hat means for that person to hange something about what hey're doing, or to say it nother way to change their ehavior? And so getting clear bout are we in a place where hat they really just needed ome empathy and somebody to s t with them? And is that t e moment that they're in rig t now? Or are they in a mome t where they're open to so e growth to some challenge to so e shift in behavior. And then ma e sure we get permission to o there. Have the trust, have t e connection, have the clari y that they know were on the r side, even if we see t e situation differently than th y do. And then there's re l potential to make shifts n systems and dynamics and grou s that were part o

Paul: 19:20

Absolutely. Well, that's gonna do it for us for today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: 19:27

And I'm Karen Gimnig, nd this has been Employing ifferences.