Employing Differences, Episode 204: Do I want to grow?

[00:00:00]  Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

[00:00:10] Karen: I'm Karen Gimnig.

[00:00:011] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis.

[00:00:12] Karen: Each episode we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, do I want to grow? 

[00:00:21] Paul: So one of the things about the types of relationships that we talk about here on the show, right, where there is a strong space between, where we work with a person for an extended period of time, we spend a lot of time with them, lots of different topics come up, is that those are relationships in which there's a possibility for conflict and that there are all kinds of relationships that we have where that doesn't really come up.

[00:00:48] Paul: You're like, "Oh, okay, this is a book club that I go to and we all just kind of hang out and have a good time, right?" Nothing contentious ever really comes up. We aren't really annoyed with each other or anything like that. If something does come up, we push it to the side and we don't really give it the space.

[00:01:04] Paul: But there are other relationships when we work closely together when we're in a romantic, familial relationship with somebody, there's plenty of opportunity for conflict to come up and it's really hard to escape from. The thing that Karen and I want to explore here today is the idea that those moments of conflict in those types of relationships are precisely the moments where we have the opportunity to learn and grow individually as a part of that relationship and we get to make a choice about whether or not we want to do that. 

[00:01:38] Karen: Yeah. I think another piece of background with this is that I start from a premise that we all were born into the world with a bunch of developmental stuff that needed to happen and almost all of it did. I mean, if you're together enough that you're listening to this podcast, eighty, ninety percent of the things that needed to develop in you managed to well enough, like you're good. And they weren't all perfect.

 [00:02:04] Karen: The parent that was supposed to do that fabulous attachment moment and was busy making dinner instead and I didn't know it, there was a part of my brain that went, "Oh, they might leave me."  All those missed moments of opportunity, all those sort of times that weren't perfect in your childhood meant that a piece of the development that was supposed to happen didn't. And you walk around as an adult trying to finish those.

 [00:02:31] Karen: And you're trying to finish them without everything about childhood that makes that such a huge growth learning window. But we are always in that space where we've got stuff left to do. And by the way, nobody finishes.

 [00:02:45] Karen: This isn't a process that you get to be done with. And so when we're talking about growth, it really is those things. What are the sort of error messages that got built into our unconscious that tell us to be afraid of things that actually aren't dangerous or that told us we must compulsively do a thing that actually isn't necessary or even useful or that this type of behavior pattern is the only socially acceptable behavior pattern when it actually isn't the thing in the new environment that we're in, all that stuff that just comes along with us. And as I say, most of it, you're getting great, right? Most things when you think it's socially acceptable thing, it really is. And a percentage of things that you're doing because you think you have to, you don't. And you just don't notice because we do them without even thinking.

 [00:3:36] Karen: So that's the space that I think we're talking about. And for the most part, we don't notice it because it's small stuff. And the place that we're likely to notice it is where we're in connected and intimate relationships. And so marriage is classic. That's probably our biggest growth potential of anything is if you're in a marriage or a marriage-like kind of very close, lots of time together, lots of elements of life overlapping. Then it happens to a lesser degree in communities, now residential communities where everybody's bought a house together, bigger level of investment, more opportunities for growth.

 [00:04:11] Karen: I mean, that kind of goes that way. When people are working together, they've got a job, people start a business together, it's hard to get out. So our motivation to do the hard work is higher. And I think this is the thing I want to say explicitly, and then I'll pass it back to Paul, but this growth stuff, yeah, it sounds nice, but it's hard. Like there's a reason that we tend to shy away from it if we can. And we do, we all shy away from those growth opportunities if we can.

 [00:04:40] Karen: And then there are times that we dive into them. And this is why we're asking the question, do I want to grow? And maybe even a better way to say it is, is this moment the moment that I want to grow in this way?

[00:04:51] Paul: Yeah, that is absolutely true. And I think it's important to recognize that those, one of the things that happened, you talked about the types of relationships this happens in, right? And it's ones that are expensive to get out of in a lot of ways. There's a degree to which the more claustrophobic the relationship is, the more opportunities for growth are going to present themselves. Because it means that there are going to be, as you said, more areas of overlapping life where you're likely to have differences show up. And the important part is that those are patterned differences.

[00:05:20] Paul: When you talk about the developmental piece, right? We live out these patterns that were adaptive and self-protective for us and useful for us, but that we learned we always have to do them, right? I've talked a number of times on the show about how one of my deep patterns is wanting to not disappoint people, wanting people to think well of me. And that has been useful to me in a lot of different ways. But also it means that there are times when that absolutely gets in the way of doing the thing that's going to be useful.

[00:05:54] Paul: Because it's a pattern for me, I'm going to do it over and over again. And when we're in a close relationship with somebody, they also have patterns that they're going to do over and over and over again. And the intersection of those two patterns is stuff that's going to repeatedly come up, which creates fertile room for growth, right. Opportunities, because it's just going to keep coming back.

 [00:06:31] Paul: And you really are at choice, right? You get to decide, like, am I willing to live with the friction that that pattern shows up with all the time? Or do I want to do the hard work of trying to change my own pattern? Because I will say that growth in this situation doesn't mean changing the other person, right? Growth means I'm going to react differently or I'm going to respond differently when the other person's deeply patterned response. 

[00:06:43] Paul: John Gottman, who's one of the probably most famous marriage researchers, right? Says, you know, in his research, something like sixty percent of arguments that married couples have have no solution, like there is no answer that makes the problem go away because what's happening is it's that the two people have a different relationship to money. They have a different understanding of what it means to be a family member. 

[00:07:10] Paul: My wife and I, for example, had a really fascinating conversation about a year and a half ago about staying with family members when you visit. It was a thing that we did all the time. And lots of folks in my family, I've come from a very large family, everybody had a hide-a-bed in the living room. So when family came over, they could stay there. It was just kind of an expectation. And my wife's growing up experience, very different. And so when you went to a town where you had family members, you stayed in a hotel. Like it's just that like that is it's a place where, where we had to peel back to figure out the reason we were having this very deep conflict about my family coming to town and what we were going to do about that was just because we had different expectations and different patterns and things we learned from. And until we were willing to kind of peel that back and willing to kind of shift our own perspective on it, there was no way that we were going to avoid having that conversation and that conflict again and again and again every time it came up. Which isn't to say that that conversation was at all pleasant or easy.

[00:08:14] Karen: Right. And I think this is a being willing to be in the space between the space between is where you have one set of experiences. And in this case, your wife has the other set of experiences and all of those experiences hang out between you. And so I think there's sort of failure modes at both extremes of this that I want to name. So one is there are people who are just like, I don't do that hard stuff. I don't do the conflict. I don't.

 Why would you have that conversation? Why would I want to say something that would make my wife unhappy? And whether they, you know, you get in marriages, you get relationships. And I think this also happens in business and in communities, by the way, that you've got people who it's almost like there's this match and everybody kind of by agreement, half the people are going to just go with the flow. It's not worth it.

[00:09:01] Karen: I'm not going to make a stink because I don't want to have the hard conversation. And the other half are going to get things done because somebody's got to get things done and they're going to kind of bulldoze through and get everything done and not have the hard conversation because they're just getting it done. And there are marriages that last for decades this way and are relatively content, I think.

[00:09:21] Karen: Because there are people who just aren't ever going to do that. Now, I think they're missing out on some really valuable sense of connection and engagement. Like, I think they're missing something, my opinion. But, but that's one end. And certainly in in a community setting or in a business setting, the likelihood that you're that, that things are going to be less contentious going forward or that you're going to have better skills for getting through disagreements going forward. That drops off fast if you're not willing to do this work.

[00:09:50] Karen: The other failure mode that I see, and this hearkens back to a couple of episodes ago when we were talking about quitting, is people who say, yes, I want to grow. I always want to grow. I will always do the work. I will always do the hard thing. I will always have the hard conversation. This is always my moment. And, and in fact, I've seen communities, for example, that adopted a policy that required that if you're in conflict, you will do the conflict work process, you know, whether it's nonviolent communication or some other process, but that we have a named conflict process that is mandatory. I think this is a very bad idea.

[00:10:27] Karen: Having a process is a good idea, making it mandatory. Very bad idea. Because that also is a failure mode. As much as I think this work is valuable and enriches your life and makes your relationships better and makes it possible to work collaboratively in ways that you just can't if you never do it, I don't believe that it's the right thing for every person in every relationship on every day of your life. And this is why we started with the question, do I want to grow? Because sometimes even for a growth junkie like me, sometimes the answer is no. 

[00:11:00] Paul: And I think it connects to the things we talked about on that episode, like, you know, do I actually have the energy and the reserves to do that growth right now, right, to lean into that? Because it's not going to be easy. I mean, it's interesting that, right, the joke is that, you know, there's those two types of people, the ones who are never going to, you know, who are never going to dig into conflict and the ones who always will and they marry each other. 

[00:11:24] Paul: Inevitably that happens, you know, or they start a business together or they like, there is a degree to which the, you know, we do, we in some ways find fascinating the people who are different than us in some particular way. And we're attracted to that. And we end up in business relationships or community relationships or things like that with people who are more towards the other end of any particular spectrum than we do. And that's where there are real opportunities for growth, you know, because we get to see how it's different. We get to interact with that, that different pattern. 

[00:11:55] Paul: But it is that case. If we're spending all of our energy growing, we're probably not spending a lot of energy doing whatever it is or enjoying whatever it is that we're actually in. So there is a degree. And when we're at the other end, when we're saying, I'm never going to, you know, when I'm not going to do this, we're settling. Right. So we say it's never going to change or we're not willing to employ or use or enjoy how it is now. Like, those are kind of the two ends of those failure modes.

[00:12:26] Paul: And so that that discernment of being able to say, like, is this the moment where it makes sense, where I'm feeling equipped, where I'm feeling resourced, where I can go or this matters enough? Right. Because sometimes it's a case of like, this has come up a couple of times and I've been willing to live with it and I've been willing to live with it. And then I just kind of go, actually, no, this is one where I am willing to try to do something different because it matters enough. I'm willing to do that. And so those are kinds of things that I think about when those opportunities present themselves. And I'm trying to make the decision of, do I want to do I want to try? Is this the moment where I want to try to learn and grow? Are those kinds of things.

 [00:13:09] Karen: Yeah, I think that is all true. Like that emotional resource. I want to give another element, which is often the growth point, as you said, is if we need to get stuff done. So I see this in communities where they're in the design and build phase, and they've just got a ton of stuff to do to get their community built. If they stop then and work through every conflict in the way that I would recommend, if you're after growth, who's going to do the accounting? Who's going to like hire the contractor? I mean, those are the simple examples, and there's way more than that. And that would be true in any business or any relationship.

[00:13:41] Karen: I mean, even in a marriage, you're in the middle of a move and you've just got a lot of boxes to pack. This isn't the moment to stop and have the two-hour deep soul-searching conversation. So it's not, do I ever want to grow? I think there are people to whom I'm good the way I am, and that's a different problem, I think. But for most of us, I think we land in the space of, we want growth to be part of our life. But is growth the thing that should be part of today? And when we decide that it is, I think our way in is to say, okay, there's a conflict. And I'm going to assume that if there's a conflict, I have feelings about it.

[00:14:20] Karen: And often my feelings are anger or resentment or anything that might be, I am right. Like feelings related to the fact that I am right, and my partner is doing something that's wrong. And if I can in that moment go to, what is it about me? What is it about my past? What fears, what is driving this besides the thing that they're doing? That's going to be the path to growth. Ideally with them being willing to do that as well, and we all do it together, and that's all a good thing. But that is such a vulnerable thing. And it's not just a matter of, can I ask myself? Very often the first answer that I give to that is not actually the one that's going to help me grow. I kind of have to spin through a few. It's not just hard, it's also time consuming. And yes, as we do it more, we get better at it and all of that. 

[00:15:13] Karen: But just that willingness to say, is this the moment? And not to beat myself up if this isn't the time. 

[15:21] Paul: Yeah, the introspective piece of it. That is the thing about living out your pattern, right? Is that when you're inside of it, you probably aren't even aware of it. You're going, well, the other person is acting irrationally because of their childhood or the experience they had of this, not the other thing. And you don't realize that you're doing exactly the same thing, right? Because you're in it, right? You don't see it. And so being able to take that spot and go, what is it about the story? The phrase we use a lot, right? What's the story I'm telling myself about what this other person is doing that affects me in such a way? These feelings are coming from somewhere, but they're about my contribution to what's happening here. 

[00:16:03] Paul: They're about the feeling that I have is in response to what this tells me based on my developmental needs, right? Where I am, that's where it comes from. And so the strong feelings are a pointer to the inner work to look back and go, "Oh, this is like that thing. That's why I'm upset about this. That's why I'm frustrated because it reminds me of that. I think it is like that." And then ideally, we can get into that spot where we go, it isn't actually like that.

[00:16:38] Paul: I know it rhymes. I recognize it. And here are all of the relevant things that are different about this situation so I don't have to respond in my patterned way, in the way that it feels comfortable because it's a well-worn path I've done all the time. And that is actually where the growth happens. Because then what happens is I do something different, right? I have the hard conversation with the person, right? Going back to my pattern of wanting to not disappoint people, I'm a manager and I've got somebody who's not doing the work, right? And I need to tell them that, right? Here's what's going on. Here's what my expectations are.

[00:17:21] Paul: You had said that you were going to be at this place at this time. This is the third time now that you've not lived up to that. This is what I need to do. These are the consequences of that. And if I can then go through that, the growth doesn't happen from me doing that. The growth happens from me doing that and the world not ending, right? And me not experiencing the thing that I am afraid will happen.

[00:17:48] Paul: And when we start to do that, then we start to go, "Oh, actually, that thing, that belief I had about what will happen if I ever do this isn't as true as I thought it was, right?". We start to see it at more actual size. That is the growth piece. In the last episode, we talked about emotional risks and we talked about when we're in a relationship with someone and they feel like there's a risk there to doing this thing, we can get curious about that, we can recognize that it is, and then we can support them to actually go and do the thing that feels risky.

[00:18:22] Paul: And that's a thing that can create an opportunity for growth. Again, the growth happens when we do something different and the world doesn't end, right? We actually get a result that isn't as terrible as we thought it was going to be because now we can start to finish that developmental work that you were talking about. We can start to see that we don't always have to respond in that way. We can actually be at choice. We can look at the situation and we can go, what actually makes sense to do here? I don't always have to do this one thing. I have choices about that.

[00:18:50] Karen: Yeah, I want to give another little exercise that I think is super useful when you're trying to do this. So you're in that like, where's this coming from? And you don't know. I find this happens to me. Okay, I know I'm being unreasonable. I don't know why I'm being unreasonable, but I know I'm being unreasonable. And yes, one option is to just, okay, I know my fear is unreasonable. I'm just going to gather my courage and do the thing and that's valid. But if I want to go a little deeper, the thing I can ask myself is not when have I experienced this before? I mean, you can try that, but it can go sideways. But if you can get into the emotion, what am I feeling? 

[00:19:31] Karen: And even what am I physically feeling? Like what's going on in my body around what I'm feeling? What is this emotion? And really get deeply into that and then say to myself, when have I felt this emotion before? And maybe even what's the first time in my life I remember feeling this emotion? Because that is the moment that probably is the source of your fear. I've worked with someone who was involved in a community conflict with a particular person. And we did this exercise and what's the feeling and went back. And it was a childhood memory of being with an abusive adult. 

[00:20:11] Karen: And so she was, as you can imagine, if that's the moment that was carrying forward for her, her reaction to that other person was, of course, way out of scale of what that person was doing. That person was not abusing children. That wasn't what was going on, but in her deep self, it was. And so when she could realize that the emotional driver was a thing that wasn't present in the space, then she could begin the practice you're talking about of how to get there differently. But I think if you can track the emotion, that's often a better source for growth than what we tend to be. Those of us who are intellectual of sorts would much rather think through logically, "Oh, I bet this because this is similar to this thing that happened in my childhood."

[00:20:58] Karen: And I bet it's that that is a less reliable road than the emotions because the emotional drivers are the strongest thing in our neurology. That the most the most unconscious drivers have very little language and very little logic. And it is the emotional similarity. So just want to name that as a way to get there. If, in fact, this is the moment when you want to grow. 

[00:21:21] Paul: And I think one other thing I'll throw in about the, is this the moment that I want to grow? I think it can also be a real opportunity if we look for those, right? If we know, if we have run into this a couple of times before and we do, we connect at that emotional level and we start to recognize, "Oh, this is the pattern, right? We have a somewhat cognitive understanding of it."

 [00:21:41] Paul: Not that we necessarily reasoned our way there, but we got to that understanding that I have a tendency to do this in these situations, right? I have a tendency to ask a lot of questions and not really be clear about what it is that I think. Then we can start to look for opportunities to break that pattern. To go like, where are there times when this might come up and what might I do about it? So that we aren't surprised by growth opportunities, right? If we're kind of thinking about them, right? And going, I would be willing to try to do something different when something like this came up.

 [00:22:14] Paul: Then when they come up, we can be a little bit more prepared, right? And we can say like, hey, I would like to try to find an opportunity to practice this thing, to do it a little differently. Because doing all of the things that we've just talked about in one interaction, we don't have the cognitive capacity or the time, right? It's not like the first time this comes up, we're going to connect at that emotional level to, when was the first time I experienced this? And then be able to go, "Oh, here's what the pattern is and oh, here's the thing that I actually want to try to do."

 [00:22:47] Paul: While you're trying to move 27 boxes from one house to another, right? It just doesn't work that way. So it's more about, in almost some ways, I'd say like in this moment of conflict, what is the thing that will contribute towards my growth? That I can take from this moment that will help me grow. But then what do I actually want to do in this moment? And it may just be "Oh, I acknowledge this is another instance of this recurring conflict."

[00:23:17] Paul: This is another example of how this comes up between us. That's the thing that I'm carrying forward from this, that may give me a little more impetus to think about, how do I want to shift this in the future? 

[00:23:27] Karen: So I feel like we've covered a lot of ground today. I'm starting from this question of do I want to grow? And naming that we all arrive in adulthood and continue through adulthood with developmental pieces that are available to grow at some point.

And that the most likely moments for those to be accessible, for those to show up, are in spaces of conflict. So when we're in relationships we can't just opt out of, when we're motivated to stay and do the hard work around conflict, those are our top opportunities for growth. And if those occur at a time when you have space in your life, space in your emotional reserves to do the hard work, it's a really good opportunity to slow down.

 [00:24:09] Karen: And with a partner on your own, whichever version of that, with partner is especially good by the way, to stop and say, what's going on for me? How is this a pattern that I have lived before? How is this repeating a thing that I've done over and over again? What is the emotional experience that I'm having? When have I had that before? And how is this the same or different than that? And then out of all of that to know there's a different way I want to be in this. And it's still scary. I've still got an emotional driver saying don't be this new way.

 [00:24:44] Karen: If I can find the courage or the support of those around me or an environment to try the new thing, that somehow all of that lines up so that I can try the new thing and have a different result, have the world not end, have the terrifying thing not happen, that begins to retrain the brain so that that particular pattern lightens up and loosens. And I'm able to be more appropriate to who I want to be in the environment that I'm in and not get caught in the old pattern. 

[00:25:13] Karen: And that's the growth that is a fabulous opportunity when it's a fabulous opportunity. And that isn't going to happen every single day. And so we want to welcome the growth and also be willing to pause or delay or even say no if it's not the right moment.

[00:25:31] Paul: Well, that's going to do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis.

[00:25:35] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig. And this has been Employing Differences.

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