Employing Differences, Episode 189: What is a fish bowl?

 [00:00:00] Karen: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.  

[00:00:13] Paul: I'm Paul Tevis.  

[00:00:14] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig.  

[00:00:16] Paul: Each episode, we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, what is a fishbowl?  

[00:00:25] Karen: So a fishbowl is, keeping with the theme we've had for the last few weeks, a method for facilitation. 

[00:00:32] Karen: And it's one of those things that some people use them and love them and other people go, "What is a fishbowl?" So we thought it was worth talking about both what is a fishbowl and how do we use them and why do we use them? And a few of the traps you can fall into with them, I think.  

[00:00:47] Karen: So a fishbowl is a means of sharing information in which some subset of the group sits- in person, typically in a circle, that's an inner circle. And the rest of the group sits in an outer circle and so that inner circle is the quote unquote "fishbowl" where that group is having a conversation of some sort. Might be facilitated, might be on a particular topic.  

[00:01:12] Karen: And the rest of the group that's sitting in the outer circle is simply observing and listening. So it's an opportunity for a larger group to have a shared experience of sharing in which some are designated as 'only listeners' and others are designated as 'speakers' who we hope are also listening to each other. 

[00:01:33] Paul: Yes. The idea is that the people in the 'fishbowl' are having a dialogue, right? They're ideally not just shouting at each other, but they're having a real conversation about a topic of some import- that's probably very important to them.  

[00:01:46] Paul: And of some additional importance to the rest of the people, to the larger group. They're also interested. They're not just, you know, bystanders. They have some, some skin in the game with regards to that conversation.  

[00:01:59] Paul: And one of the things that as Karen and I were starting to prepare for this episode, we realized like, we both love using these in very, very different ways. From that base description of there's a small inner group, that's having a conversation, there's a larger outer group that's listening in. 

[00:02:17] Paul: There are a number of variations. There are a number of ways that you can use them, but that all have that element in common of that creating a shared experience for the larger group around a topic of some import and some relevance.  

[00:02:33] Paul: So we want to play a little bit with and explain a little bit about. You know, ways that we use them, where we've seen them work. Well, some traps you might fall into. So yeah, they're a really powerful tool. Once you realize how you can use them.  

[00:02:48] Karen: Yeah. And I think the other thing is why to use them, which is, you know, thinking about what is it that you're trying to accomplish. Probably one of the worst reasons, and yet the one most often is the reason that I do it is that they are time saving.  

[00:03:03] Karen: So, I tend to use them in the space of emotional processing, where there's some sort of conflict, there's a good bit of emotional engagement. People are kind of stuck. And they're looking for a way to get through as a whole group.  

[00:03:16] Karen: But predictably, not everybody in the group has the same level of investment or passion or concern about this particular topic.  

[00:03:26] Karen: So when the group as a whole is grappling with something, and there's conflict about it, and the group as a whole has a need to get some resolution about it, but you've got a smaller number of players who really need to get in and chew on it together, a fishbowl can work really well.  

[00:03:43] Karen: So that's one example is when you're in the emotional space. And we set that up differently than what Paul, you use them much more often in information sharing spaces, right?  

[00:03:55] Paul: Yeah, I have a tendency to use them when, you know, there's a complex topic that we need to explore, you know, that's got a bunch of different viewpoints to it. 

[00:04:03] Paul: And I also use them for time saving. In the sense that instead of having a whole series of one on one conversations. We can actually do a lot more group processing of this idea together when we're doing it that way.  

[00:04:17] Paul: So I will sometimes use a variation on a fishbowl where- I sometimes think of it as a dynamic fishbowl. Which is there's a certain number of people who are in that inner circle at any given time, and people can come in and out. 

[00:04:33] Paul: And so some people might come from the outer circle into the inner circle. If they have a question that they want to ask or a thing that they want to share.  

[00:04:40] Paul: The idea is that we're bringing focus to that inner conversation, even though some of the individual people might be swapping in and out.  

[00:04:46] Paul: So for example, I did one a few years ago with a group that was, they're basically rolling out a new strategy for their product development. They've been doing it one way for a couple of years and now they needed to make a shift. And so one of the things that the senior director who brought me in wanted to make sure of was that people really understood what that shift was. And he wanted to make sure he understood that he knew how people were reacting to it. 

[00:05:10] Paul: So we actually did a series of fishbowls, one which was where people were asking questions about "Well, would it imply this?", like, "I'm worried that this might come up, this might happen..."  

[00:05:21] Paul: And so what would happen instead of having everybody needing to have a one on one with their manager or just a broad Q and A, like it meant that people could hear other folks asking questions that they suddenly realized, "Oh, I had that question too. I do really want to know the answer." And so it was a much richer- and they could play off each other. So it was a much richer discussion as a result.  

[00:05:42] Paul: But then also I facilitated a dialogue in the middle of the fishbowl where they were talking about what they thought about this. What were their hopes, what were their fears. And the director who had brought this was sitting on the outside listening in. 

[00:05:53] Paul: So he got to hear the concerns that people had, and I got to sort of be his curiosity by proxy. Because I wasn't invested in this, I wasn't going to get defensive, that sort of thing. And so then, when I brought him back and we talked through it.  

[00:06:08] Paul: So I often use it for that sort of current slowing down people's immediate reactions to things where we can share information in a group setting, but also make sure we do a rich exploration of it rather than being super reactive to it. 

[00:06:24] Karen: And I'm similarly looking for that space where we can do a richer, less reactive space. And often I'm pulling this out when we need some deeper sharing. And that's, that's another reason why you want to do it in the smaller subset is that if you go in a round for 20 or 30 people, you don't get a lot of depth usually.  

[00:06:46] Karen: If you can check in with everybody, everybody gets to say, and that's great, but you don't get the depth that you need to really work through a conflict. And so if we can get a group of 6 or maybe 8 to do that work witnessed by the rest of the group, the sort of depth of the conflict, the different emotional pieces, the stuff that is kind of often unconsciously driving can come up to consciousness. All that stuff can happen. And the whole group can experience it, even though they're not all participating in it.  

[00:07:19] Karen: So it's time saving in the sense that you can do one of those. And with fewer people sharing, it doesn't take as long as if it was a larger group sharing all that kind of thing. But also with the time saving is the ability to have the depth. 

[00:07:33] Karen: And those in some ways are two parts of the same thing. You can get depth in a larger group, but it takes a lot more time.  

[00:07:38] Paul: Yeah, it really does allow you to go deeper, quicker. And like, you still, I always feel it's important to have some degree of interaction or feedback between those inner and outer circles. 

[00:07:49] Paul: For example, a couple of years ago, I was doing this with a professional group. And so the fish, or the group of experts, right? They were the panelists sort of on the inside. And they were having a discussion about current topics in that professional area.  

[00:08:04] Paul: And then the people who were listening in. They, you know, sort of went, "Oh, okay, that's interesting." And the important part about the fish bug, right. Is that the people in the middle, I always tell them "Talk to each other. Don't grandstand for the benefit of the people who are listening in. There happened to be people listening, but talk to each other, engage with each other, create dialogue." 

[00:08:22] Paul: But then what we did is we had, you know, those people on the outside, then break into some small groups and discuss what they'd heard. And then go, "What other questions do we have?" And they'd feed those back in sort of as additional fish food, as we called it. And so it created a little bit of interplay and dialogue between the inner and outer groups. 

[00:08:40] Paul: And again, getting to a much deeper place, much quicker, than if we'd just done rounds.  

[00:08:48] Karen: Yeah. And so I think this is one of those distinctions between the information sharing space and the conflict workspace. I'm more hesitant to have people popping in and out because I want to protect that inner circle work for the, the emotional depth. 

[00:09:05] Karen: I often use what I call a bridging circle and we can put a link to the Cooperative Culture Handbook that has that as an exercise if you want to look for that.  

[00:09:13] Karen: But the concept there is that you're doing 3 rounds that kind of get a little deeper each round. And if you had people moving in and out during those rounds, you would disrupt that. 

[00:09:23] Karen: So again, thinking about what's your goal. And then one of the things to decide in the logistics of a fishbowl is, is it a dynamic fishbowl where people sub each in and out in some way? Or is it a fixed fishbowl where for a period of time, this group of people is going to do the exercise and other people are going to observe. That's one of the choices that a facilitator makes in setting up a fishbowl.  

[00:09:48] Paul: Exactly. And one of the things that you have to get into in that latter case, right, when you're going to have a fixed group is 'who is going to be in that inner circle'. And obviously when you're doing more of like an information sharing sort of thing, like, you have your experts, who are going to be in it. 

[00:10:02] Paul: But I'm curious, when you've got a conflict going, when you've got a hot issue in a group, like how do you decide 'who's in the middle?'  

[00:10:10] Karen: I will tell you the temptation is always to hand pick the people that I, as the facilitator of this conflict, know, cared, thought a lot. And I'll hand pick an even balanced group. And I have learned not to do that.  

[00:10:23] Karen: Because I'm not actually the one who gets to adjudicate that. And not everybody wants to be in the fishbowl. Not everybody's ready. If feelings are raw enough, they may not. Even if they're one of the people that has been the most outspoken, say on a Slack channel or something, they may not want to be vulnerable in the way of sharing in a circle. 

[00:10:43] Karen: So what I have found that has worked beautifully is I entrust the group with the assignment of selecting. And it is done like this.  

[00:10:52] Karen: If you're in person, you say, "We're going to take a break and then we'll come back..". And, you know, on my case, I may be about to do a 90 minute exercise. So I'd want to take a break, even if we're pretty early in the meeting. I want to give everybody a chance to move before we're going to sit for 90 minutes. So we're going to take a break, get up and move around.  

[00:11:08] Karen: "And when you come back, there will be six chairs", or eight, or whatever the number is, but there will be six chairs in the middle, plus me if I'm facilitating, say, "And if you wish to be on the inner circle, sit in one of those chairs. And if you wish to be in the observer circle, sit in one of the other chairs."  

[00:11:25] Karen: If this is on Zoom, I say "We're looking for six or eight. If you wish to be in the inner circle, put your camera on when you come back from break. If you wish to be in the outer circle, turn your camera off when you come back from break." And then I set them the task. 

[00:11:38] Karen: The goal is to have a diverse group. Or to have the various perspectives related to this topic represented in the group. This is what we're looking for.  

[00:11:48] Karen: So, as the group forms, if you look and see, "Oh, look, there are two or three people already in the circle that probably would say the same kinds of things I would say." Maybe step back and be an observer. 

[00:12:02] Karen: If you look and go, "Huh, yeah, there's nobody really there, or there's maybe only one that, you know, it seems unbalanced and my viewpoint is less represented", then step in.  

[00:12:13] Karen: And people will say, "Well, what if we don't know what other people's things", it'll probably work out. Like, and it always has for me, I will say, that the people who need to know, tend to know.  

[00:12:25] Karen: And people opt in and out that way and in some groups, it fills in really quickly and, you know, and if somebody just really wants to participate, I'll add another chair if I need to. The numbers can be flexible and, more commonly, there are sort of empty chairs still sitting there and it just takes some patience. And some silence, and some checking in, and eventually we fill in. 

[00:12:45] Karen: And sometimes I work with, you know, 5 or 6 when I really wanted 8. You know, we'll just see what shows up.  

[00:12:53] Karen: But that means the group owns it. Right? And then if somebody is sitting in the observer chair and feels, you know, get some emotion about what's being said and wanting a chance to speak. They're in the chair. They are there because they picked it. 

[00:13:06] Karen: And if the people who are in are in because they picked it, so the vulnerability and the sharing and whatnot that's happening there, they had some say in. So, yeah, I, I try really hard not to select.  

[00:13:18] Karen: I will say the one exception to that would be, I have occasionally seen a fishbowl used when there's a power differential or a minority voice that we're trying to elevate. 

[00:13:28] Karen: So the classic example would be, you know, the five people of color and an otherwise all white community. And we say as a community, that those voices aren't being heard. And it can be race. It can be gender. It can be role.  

[00:13:44] Karen: We've just got a couple of people, you know, that are in this category when most of we've got a couple of human resources, the people in this team and everybody else is an engineer. Human Resources people are being drowned out. Or whatever the thing is.  

[00:13:57] Karen: But when you've got a minority like that, and I mean that within your group, the minority, that if you want to elevate that voice, you can invite. And again, invite, not arm twist, or pressure, or announce that, or demand, but you can invite those folks to have a voice in a fishbowl environment. 

[00:14:18] Karen: And in that case, then you are at least selecting a criteria for who's in. So, yeah, those are some ways.  

[00:14:26] Paul: And it connects to the thing we talked about last week with small groups and the idea that sometimes you really do want to amplify particular differences and voices so that those actually do get heard. 

[00:14:35] Paul: This just happens to be where you're doing it in a way that everybody else can listen in on the conversation because you think that would be valuable.  

[00:14:43] Paul: And so I think the other thing that both of us really hold for fishbowls is that they are never the only thing that we do when we're using them with a group, right? 

[00:14:52] Paul: Where it's not a decision making structure. We're not making a decision in a fishbowl. We're using it embedded into some larger frame or larger structure. So we're never just going to come in, just do a fishbowl and leave. So I almost always do, at the very least, some sort of, at the end, what are you taking away? You know, individually or in small groups, what are you taking away from this? 

[00:15:16] Paul: Like, what did you learn? What'd you hear that you, we might do a share out round based on that as well. That can then feed into some other decision making process or somewhere else. And usually we're queuing it up with something too.  

[00:15:28] Paul: But yeah, it's never just a thing on its own. Because it's useful for, as we said, creating a shared experience for the group that now they have that as a basis for working with. 

[00:15:40] Karen: Yep. And so while you've talked about possibly breakout rooms or breakout groups where people can go and have their own conversation, if I don't feel like I have time for that, which again- Often when people have big conflicts and want to do a lot of big emotional work about it, they don't actually want to give the time that it would take to do everything I would like them to do with it. 

[00:16:00] Karen: So if I, you know, would like to have four or six hours of really good, wonderful, deep group work, and I have about a two hour window, this is a way, but then at the end, I'm still going to take enough time for a round that is, you know, 'what I'm leaving with', 'what felt important to me'.  

[00:16:18] Karen: Yeah, I, I kind of encourage people not to critique the arguments or the language. Like you need to create some safety for the people who shared, but also a way to include the observers. 

[00:16:33] Karen: And by the way, in that round, I also include the people who were in the fishbowl. So everybody gets to kind of come out of the fishbowl and adjust and then say, what's going on for us now.  

[00:16:43] Paul: And one of the really useful things about that is it kind of lets the people who were in the fishbowl understand that they actually had an impact. 

[00:16:51] Paul: It can be really stressful to be in that inner circle. You know, having those conversations you were being watched and listened to by everyone. And then hearing, you know, the thoughts that you provoked in that, that conversation provoked in other people, the learning, the journey that people went on. Like how it affected them, that can bring a real sense of closure to your inner participants. 

[00:17:11] Paul: That can be really useful in helping them sort of move back out into the space.  

[00:17:15] Karen: Yeah. So two episodes back, we talked about how doing individual work within a context of a larger group, or pair work within the context of a larger group. So I think that was last week with small groups, can actually create a more cohesive, connected group experience. 

[00:17:31] Karen: And this is following along in that theme where we're saying that if we can take time for a subset to really engage, while witnessed by everybody. That the whole group can have a shared experience that really moves a process forward. And that might be an information sharing process, or a strategy shift, kind of process. 

[00:17:53] Karen: That's more in the cognitive space. And where you're sharing information and getting reactions to that with possibly a more expert circle in the middle. Or it might be a more conflict or disagreement space where you're much more emotionally charged and you're working those emotional pieces.  

[00:18:09] Karen: And depending on what it is you're trying to do and how you're trying to do it, you may have a dynamic fishbowl where people move in and out of that inner circle. 

[00:18:17] Karen: You may have a fixed fishbowl where there is a defined exercise that's happening with the same folks staying in it.  

[00:18:25] Karen: And in any of those cases, you want to make sure that post fishbowl, there's some sort of processing for the group as a whole. And lots and lots of ways to interface that with other facilitation methods and other pieces. But this, this is a nice one to have in your toolbox.  

[00:18:40] Paul: It absolutely is. Well, that's going to do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis.  

[00:18:45] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig. And this has been Employing Differences.