Employing Differences, Episode 198: Does it help to guess?

[00:00:00:] Paul: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

[00:00:10] Karen: I'm Karen Gimnig.

[00:00:12] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis.

[00:00:13] Karen: Each episode, we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, does it help to guess?

[00:00:20] Paul: As human beings, we're really good at guessing. We will make inferences from the most minuscule of data. And one of the challenges with guessing, particularly when we have very, very small data, is that we insert all kinds of things into our guessing. And one of the things that we are very prone to guessing about is other people's intentions. Other people's actions towards us are actually a very small bit of data that we interpret in light of all kinds of experiences that we've had. And then we tell ourselves stories about what all that means. 

[00:00:54] Paul: So as it turns out, these guesses sometimes help us and they sometimes don't. And Karen and I really want to explore today how we can work more skillfully with people who we are having a challenging time with. For example, I think any number of us have been in a situation where there's someone who we need to work with or we're working with and we're really having difficulty and we just say, we just, you know, they just don't respect me. I just need them to treat me respectfully and then we'll be able to, to work together.

[00:01:29] Paul:  And so we want to unpack a little bit about what's going on there with guessing and how we might guess a little more effectively or guess in ways that are going to be more helpful to us when it comes to working with other people.

[00:01:44] Karen: Yeah, I think there's a frame of We should think about what's going on for the other person, because that helps us be empathetic. And then there's also the frame of, well, I know what's going on with them. So, you know, I have my explanation that is all set to go. I think one of the dynamics I want to sort of point to here is Paul described the person who is saying, I'm not feeling respected. I want you to be, behave towards me in a respectful way. 

[00:02:11] Karen: And I'm going o say, I'm betting the other person is in the situation of saying, they keep throwing this word, respect at me. I'm respectful. I am. I do respect them. I think they're very good at all these things. And I like in my own head, I have a great deal of respect for them. So what are they thinking? And, and recognizing that there's almost always those two sides. I've never actually talked to anybody who said yeah I go around the world not respecting people on purpose I don't value respect I don't feel that I don't like. That is not a self-perception that, I mean, maybe it's true for some people, but very few, and I don't wanna work with them.

[00:02:50] Karen: So I'm gonna start with the premise that if someone is saying they're feeling disrespected, the other person's probably feeling misunderstood at the least. But we can get caught in that. And then the question we're sort of playing with today is what is the role of thinking about what's going on for the other person and what their intentions are and what's there for them. And so when is that useful? When is it not useful? So that's kind of the framing of recognizing there's always two sides and there is both the option of whether or not to guess what's going on with the other person and the option of how to go about that guessing.

[00:03:38] Paul: I think that we are, as I said, incredibly prone to doing that guessing. And so I think we've talked before about how we don't ever actually get to know what's going on with somebody else. We never really know. And at the same time, it's also really hard for us to stop, stop from doing that. And so I think an important piece is just recognizing what assumptions am I making about what this person is doing and what I interpret they're doing and catching that and then just kind of asking ourselves, like, is that actually helping me? Like, is that guess that I'm making, the intention that I'm ascribing, is that actually helping me have a better relationship with this person, to work more effectively with them?

[00:04:23] Paul: Because, so going back to the respect example, I mean, oftentimes what we talk about is, you know, when we're working with someone or in relationships with them and they do something we, you know, we don't want them to do, right, we can ask them to do something else. But if where we're getting caught is how we feel about what they're doing, if I feel, you know, that you don't respect me, then even if you do something different, I can tell that same story about that new behavior, that this is just you're just you're only doing what you know, you're doing this just because I asked you. You don't actually feel it. 

[00:05:00] Paul: You know that that belief isn't really there behind it. I can still tell the same story about the different behavior. And so recognizing that, like, if I'm so caught in that space of being attached to that guess, then then I'm really stuck. The other person might not be able to get me out of it.

[00:05:23] Karen: Yeah, I think that sort of attachment to any one story that that's your first red flag, if I've made my guess and and now it's truth, then, you know, then we're probably in trouble. That's the thing I would advise against. So the fluidity of a guess, like it's a guess and I'm making a guess and I need to hold it lightly. I need to be aware that I'm guessing. I don't actually know what's going on in the other person's head. I don't actually know what their values or intentions are. I don't actually know how they feel about me. So what I think I know is a guess.

[00:05:58] Karen: There's a good start is name our guesses as guesses or think of them as guesses or stories. We talk a lot about that, that we use that language of the story. I'm telling myself same thing. So I think that's one hint. And the other place that I would go is if I'm telling myself a story that reinforces my current behavior and approach, then I'm likely to keep getting the same results. So if I want the thing that's happening now to keep happening. If I have decided, for example, to break up with my boyfriend and I keep telling myself the story about his horrible intentions or whatever my story was, and I just keep rehearsing it, it's probably going to help me stay broken up with my boyfriend if that's what I want, right? 

[00:06:42] Karen: We're going to assume here that the frames that we tend to talk about, that our goal is not to break up or otherwise exit the relationship, whatever that is, because we probably want to keep our job or stay in our community or, you know, whatever the place is that we're working on this. So, so thinking about if I want to stay in the relationship, but I want it to be different. Then I need to think about whether the story I'm telling myself or the guests that I'm making is helping me stay in the same behaviors and same thinking that I've been in, or is helping me shift. Because shift is the thing that's going to make things different.

[00:07:22] Paul: One of the hallmarks there of a behavior that is not useful in that situation is or a belief that's not useful is the belief that absolves you from any responsibility for changing. Right. If I go, well, this is just how they are. Right. They're never going to change. Like I have now said there is no need for me to do anything different because it wouldn't make a difference like that. That is a sign that that is not actually helping you.

[00:07:51] Paul: And and so catching that way, like if I'm going, well, if this is true, then that means that there's nothing that I can do that, that then I don't have to do anything else. I just get to blame the other person. That is an excellent sign that it is a self-protective and not particularly useful guess that you have made. And so that's often one of my one of my things that I look for when I'm noticing that is just going, if I now have put all responsibility for change on the other person, that means it's probably not useful to me because in these situations, the person that I have the most influence over changing is me.

[00:08:27] Paul: And if I've given up all possibility for doing that, that means it's probably not going to work. And something that you said earlier that I think is also a really key thing to keep in mind is that feeling of certainty. And a teacher of mine liked to say, certainty and curiosity cannot coexist. You can't be both at the same time. And so we talk about the importance of curiosity in any relationship of just kind of recognizing the limits of your own knowledge, recognizing what you do and you don't know.

[00:08:58] Paul: And at the point where you can no longer be curious about what's going on with the other person, that's a sign that you've landed in that place of certainty from which you can't move, like you're rigid, you're stuck, you're not getting anywhere. And so noticing that you're in that place of, I'm here, I'm not moving anywhere, you've given up the possibility of change. As you point out, that might be okay based on your goals, right? If you're saying like, I do need to remember that this person that I've decided that I don't want this person in my life anymore. I need to no longer work for this boss. I need to whatever have you holding on to that belief can help you stay in that spot that you need to be in in order to be able to exit the relationship. 

[00:09:45] Paul :But if you actually want things to improve, you need to still be able to move. You need to have options and flexibility and that comes from that place of curiosity. Certainty doesn't help you get there.

[00:09:58] Karen: And I think one of the things that, that pushes us towards certainty or towards that story that there's nothing I can do is that we're fearful that if we behave more kindly or put extra energy in or, you know, whatever we might do, that would be different. And the behavior stays the same or for that matter, it gets worse. I've exposed a vulnerability and they just come and attack that that's going to feel really off. And I gotta say that can happen. We use the word vulnerability because it's a chance that where you could get hurt, there's a real, very real potential of getting hurt. But if we're in that defended place, nothing is shifting. 

[00:10:39] Karen: And so I think one of the things that can be useful about a guess is reframing the story so that some of that more relational vulnerable kind of work or kind of options makes more sense. So if my story is, you know, Paul just doesn't respect me, and he's never going to respect me, then trying to have a meaningful conversation with Paul, where I share things with him that are important to me, that that can never work. But if I can instead say, you know, Paul interrupts me, because he's so eager and excited about what I'm saying, and that's actually a sign that he's engaged with me, or could be might be I don't have to know if I'm right, but if I can say, okay, there might be something different going on here, then Paul doesn't care about me. 

[00:11:26] Karen: And instead can look for, okay, there may be other things going on. And if the actual underlying thing includes, Paul's a decent guy who does care about me and something's going wrong between us, that can give me enough sense of safety. I think it's safety, but, or motivation, maybe, but enough willingness to say, okay, how can I change what I'm doing to let Paul know what I need or let him know how he's landing with me or, or for that matter, how can I change what I'm doing? So, okay. So Paul's a guy who, you know, he's big and loud and says lots of words and I don't like big and loud and say lots of words. So if I'm going to be around Paul, what do I do to get myself ready for that? 

[00:12:12] Karen: To, you know, so it may not even change Paul's behavior, but, but if it's not, in the story of they're trying to hurt me. And I can get to a story that's more about, okay, they're who they are and I'm who I am. What do I wanna do about that? That guessing piece of, I've given myself some different possibilities of what's going on on the other side that include positive outcomes, enables me to do what I can do to get us towards those positive outcomes.

[00:12:44] Paul:  And that's really a sign of a guest that is going to be more helpful to you, is something that even if their behavior doesn't change, even if they don't do anything different, that you feel better about it. You know, this is one of the things I run into with, you know, with sales for my, you know, my business all the time. It's like I'm reaching out to people and I don't hear back. Right. And it's like, well, I could guess that they think I'm a terrible person and that I'm being pushy and salesy and really bothering them. And then I can feel bad about myself. Right. I could guess that. That's why they're not replying. 

[00:13:20] Paul: Or I could guess that they're really busy and overwhelmed, just like everybody else who I know, and that the reason that I haven't gotten back to me is because they're, you know, knee-deep in their inbox going, I don't even know what to do today. And it turns out when I guess that, I feel better about it. I don't actually have to have them do anything different. I don't need to tell them that that's what I'm thinking.

[00:13:43] Paul: And so, in some ways, that's a thing that doesn't force me to be any more vulnerable than because I'm feeling better about it, I might actually be willing to do something that is a little more vulnerable. But, but sometimes just that reframe, as psychologists talk about it, is really important. And recognizing what possibilities does this reframing really open up for me that weren't there before? How can I, when I guess differently, how do I reframe the situation that makes it more tolerable, more available for me?

[00:14:17] Karen: Yeah, I think in terms of just looking for the high level hints as to whether this is a useful guess or not, If the guest says, yep, I'm all right exactly as I am and I should keep doing what I'm doing, I'm betting that's not helping your relationship. If the guest is like, ugh, challenging and hard and in the face of that, then I've got to grow something or try something that's uncomfortable and difficult, that's probably a really helpful guest.

[0014:47] Paul Yeah,yeah, so to track sort of where we've been here today, we talk about the fact that we can never really know what's going on with the other person, what their intentions are, and that we're almost always guessing at them. And the question is whether or not the guesses we're making are helpful or not. So as you said, some of the hallmarks of whether or not a guess is helpful. Does it feel certain? Does it feel like I have absolved myself of any responsibility of needing to do anything different?

[00:15:16] Paul: Does it seem like this guess is always true, has always been true and will never change and makes it feel like I have no options? If that's the case, then it's probably not as helpful to you in terms of changing what's going on. If, in fact, you've come to the conclusion that you don't want to change what's going on, you want to exit the relationship, that can still be useful. But if you do actually want to have a more effective working relationship with that person, then the more helpful guesses are going to be ones that help you feel better about what's happening, even if the other person doesn't change, that are going to help you sort of see what options that you have that you didn't notice before. 

[00:15:58] Paul: And honestly, those are going to be things that ascribe real humanity to the other person that often say, I bet they're actually a decent person who is struggling with circumstances that I may or may not understand, that they probably don't intend for me to feel the way that I feel about this. There may even be a degree to which they wish they were getting something different from this situation. Those tend to be guesses that help us actually experience the relationship differently, to become more skillful as we become a little less reactive, and to be able to potentially make real change to our working relationships.

[00:16:37] Karen: That's going to do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Karen Gimnig.

[00:16:40] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis. And this has been Employing Differences.