Employing Differences, Episode 202: When do we quit?

[00:00:00] Paul: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals. 

[00:00:09] Karen: I'm Karen Gimnig. 

[00:00:10] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis.

[00:00:12] Karen: Each episode, we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, when do we quit?

[00:00:20] Paul: So this is a topic we've been dancing around a little bit in the last few episodes in Episode 201 and certainly in Episode 199 as well. We sometimes fall into believing that if we have a degree of relational skill, right, if we're good at working with people and if we understand the space between, we sometimes can fall into the trap of thinking that we can work with anyone. and that we can fix every situation, that if we just use the right words, if we if we approach things in the right way, that we can always make things better.

[00:00:56] Paul: And our experience has been that's not true. And we actually want to talk about today something that we've danced around a little, but really want to center in this episode is how do we know when it's not worth continuing to invest more energy, more, more, more time into this might be a particular conversation. It might be into a particular topic. It might be into a particular relationship. How do we know when to quit? Because our interpersonal skill isn't going to fix or change things.

[00:02:27] Karen: And I wish I could say, and here's the list of things that if these things happen, then you turn it off like a faucet. And it is, of course, much, much more nuanced than that. And this is maybe one of the most nuanced kind of episodes that we'll do, although nuance shows up with us a lot. But I think that it's I wanted to say that I think, well, I don't think every relationship is salvageable. Like Paul just said, I want to avoid the myth that if I was just good enough, if I just had enough skills, if I was just self-controlled enough, if I just, you know, all those things that I learned in my training, if I just could remember to do them in the moment, if I was just good enough at that, I could salvage anything. I could make any relationship better. I could get to enough, vulnerability and curiosity and connection with a person like that will always work. I'm really sure that's not true. I'm really sure that's not true. And I'm really sure that if I am doing my own work, if I am practicing vulnerability and curiosity, if I am taking trainings, if I am taking time to think about these things, if I am using the resources around me to really look at how am I my best self with a person, it will be better. 

[00:02:37] Karen: Like it will be less explosive, less damage will be done to whatever extent that we need to still overlap with each other. Like it will be better and I will feel better. So it's not that in some relationships it's not worth doing the work. I don't believe that's true. And I'm happy to say that my first marriage was an example of this. I was doing all of my Imago training as my first marriage was falling apart. So I was spending whole weekends in this space that's a lot of couples focus actually, talking about all the things you can do to make your marriage work. And I'd go home and try them. And since I framed this as my first marriage, you will get very quickly that although I did them and did them and did them, there was no way that I could do enough to create a level of connection that made that marriage work for me. And I ultimately decided to leave it. 

[00:03:23] Karen: Now, because I did all of that work over and over again, and he did some of it with me, actually, because we did that work, we had a smoother divorce. Our kids didn't get pulled into the middle. We still have conversations when our kids are involved and we need to talk about things. We're civil. We did our divorce with minimal lawyer involvement. Like so much was better about that. And although that's a personal example, I think the same thing applies in organizational settings. So we want to tell you sometimes you should quit and we'll talk about that. And that doesn't mean you quit doing the work. It just means that you quit having the expectation that you'll get the outcome you want.

[00:04:00] Paul: Right. And I think that's actually a key thing. Right. In terms of figuring out when when to to quit. Right. Again, not not quit. Showing up is the best self you possibly can. But but when do you you give up on thinking that you're going to get this thing that's not going to happen? And I think that's that's important to be clear about. What is it that would make it worth it for me to continue this conversation, this this relationship? You know what? What is the thing that I am hoping for that if it happened, I would go, it would make sense to continue and then really sort of assess how likely is that? Do I think that's given all the things that I've tried? I have a couple of different.  I'm not somebody who gives up on relationships easily. Often to my detriment, as it turns out, right? This is a two-edged sword, right? As I give people second and third and fourth and fifth chances. And that's bitten me a couple of times. And what it's forced me to do – this is mostly in an organizational volunteer context, right, where I've given people the opportunity to try out jobs that other people would never give to them because of reasons. 

[00:05:15] Paul: And I've sort of – thought to myself, okay, if I work with this person in this way, then they'll be able to turn it around. They'll be able to change this pattern of behavior that that we've seen in the past. And I've gotten to the point now where if, if I start to work with them and there's no indication that it's changing at any point soon, I have to seriously ask how much energy am I willing to put into this and how much am I willing to expose the rest of the organization to risk, right? If I'm asking this person to run this event, am I willing to put the other people who are involved in running that at risk? So part of it is, I only start to think clearly about that when I start to think clearly about What is it that would make this worth it to me? I know that there's trouble here. What is it that I'm hoping will happen? Am I seeing any signs that we're moving in that direction at all? Or am I just am I just hoping and hoping and hoping? Because as I'm fond of saying, hope is a wonderful thing, but hope is not a plan. So what makes me think that it's even possible for that change to happen?

[00:06:23] Karen: Yeah, I think that's super important. And I will say, I do not go about my life fronting this suspicion that it can't possibly work, right? I think like you, I go in expecting that I can have a good relationship with anybody. And at some point, something in my guts just sort of goes, there was a frame when I was teaching third grade about stranger danger, it was like conversation. But one of the questions that kids were told to ask themselves, do I get a good, a yes or a no feeling about this? Like even at that young age, trying to teach us to pay attention to, is there something in our gut that just says, this isn't right. And I think that's the beginning, right? For me, the right thing is to go into the relationship, assuming it's going to work and it's going to be great. And if I start to get that yikes feeling, then it's time to get really curious and to look at what is it that I want from this relationship? 

[00:07:17] Karen: What is the consequence if I don't maintain, like, if I'm at odds with this person and they don't, and I'm not available to be connected to them, if I, you know, separate myself from them, if I refuse to speak to them, whatever that, whatever the boundary that I feel like I need might be, if I do that, What's the consequence to me? What's the consequence to them? Can I live with that? And also what's the consequence for the people around us? Because in group settings, which is what we talk about here, it is always true that what's going on relationally between two affects the whole group. So really looking at what the choices are. And the piece that I want to put in there that we don't usually say so explicitly is when I'm looking at the choices that I have, give myself permission to come to the conclusion that one of those choices really is to separate, even if it comes at a cost. One of the choices is the cost of quitting is worth it.

[00:08:17] Paul: And I think there's also, we need to recognize that there are different levels of quit. Right. That that for me, the quit is sometimes about the giving up on the dream of what I thought it was going to be or what I hoped it would be. As you said, I come into this. I assume that it's going to work out. It's going to be great. We're going to learn from each other. We're going to get amazing things done. And, you know, over time, I kind of realized, well, that's not going to happen here. And but that can mean that I just go, great, this this may just be a more transactional relationship. Like I still need to live in this space with this person. Right. I need to I'm part of this community or I'm part of this organization or I do this. And maybe I maybe the problem that I'm having is that I'm trying to make this a relationship, be something that it can't really be for whatever reason. 

[00:09:02] Paul: And it just needs to be a different type of relationship so I can quit on the where this is going to be amazing and fantastic and generative. And instead, it's going to be I'm going to work well enough with this other person that we can accomplish what we need to do together, that I'm going to stop trying so hard, stop dumping so much energy into this to try and make it something that I recognize it's not going to be, because that may still be a better thing for me and a better thing for the group. But now I can When I let go of that, I can let go of the sort of anxiety and pressure to make it perfect, right? To make it be what I dreamed it could be. It's like, okay, this is what it is and that's enough, right? I think there's another piece there of recognizing the like, what would be, what's possible and enough in this situation?

[00:09:49] Karen: Absolutely, and I think another element of that is to look at our interactions with that person and pay attention to what are the things about it that don't work. So, you know, I've seen examples in communities where, you know, words get said in one circumstance and then, well, I'm not going to sit with that person at dinner for a casual social conversation. because that person is so toxic, I'm not going anywhere near them. That's a pretty extreme thing. And you might need to do that, but usually not. So I've certainly had relationships in my life where, you know, most of the time it's fine. It's no problem. And occasionally they head off in a pattern that I've just lived enough times to know they're on that road. Nothing's going to be good if I stay in the presence of that. And the boundary that I have is that when that pattern starts to happen, I'm gone. 

[00:10:41] Karen: And, you know, and with that person, I make sure I have an exit in some way, whatever that is, or, you know, like I think about what my boundaries are, but it's not all or nothing. And so I can mitigate the damage to the group by saying, it's not that I can't tolerate being in their presence. Maybe it is, but if it's not, then let's acknowledge that it's not. And that there are certain environments where it's very unlikely to be a problem. And in fact, where, you know, there are people that I was like, I'm never going to be in a committee meeting with them. Like if they're on the committee, I'm just not going to be on it. But if I need to borrow a cat carrier, they're my person. They're great. What are the things where that can be functional and do my own work emotionally so that I don't just kind of cluster every type of interaction that I might have with them and paint it all with the same black brush? Because nobody's all bad.

[00:11:29] Karen: At the end of the day, there's something worthwhile about that person and there's something worthwhile about my relationship with them. And if I can find those things, That may even over time give me an end to the parts that aren't working, no guarantees about that. But just to have that internal thought about, okay, what are the things that are problematic for me, as opposed to that person is problematic for me, and address those things.

[00:11:54] Paul: It's the, you know, you they may be doing some things, there may be some behavior that is problematic for you, but we very easily can feel conflate behavior and character. Right. And that's what you're really pointing at is like, can I can I either keep myself out of the situation where I'm going to be exposed to the behavior or if the behavior does happen, that I can mitigate the impact on it to me without going, this is they're just a terrible person, you know, and sometimes you need some distance. Right. I have I've had a couple of of professional relationships that, that I've exited. And, you know, because the working relationship was not there, it was not working out. I was trying to do my best and it was not, it was not going the way I needed it to go.

[00:12:36] Paul: And I was then able to maintain relatively good relationships after a little bit of a break with those people, right? Where it's like, I'll meet up with them for coffee and talk about work now. And right, and kind of one of the things that has been useful has been all of the people that kind of involved in these with me have been able to say, yeah, that wasn't a great situation and I can recognize my contribution to that. And I can go, yeah, I can recognize my contribution to it. And I'm not sure that I would ever go back and work for you again. But I don't think you're a bad person. And I actually kind of enjoy talking with you about these are the things where it's like we can we can salvage the good parts of that relationship and and and give up on the bad that we can quit those pieces. And so that's another part of it that I think is really important to recognize is is, as you said, it's not all or nothing.

[00:13:28] Karen: Yeah, and I want to get one more factor to really look at, which is what's going on for me more broadly. You know, one of one of the challenging relationships in my life is with my stepfather. And most days I can call the house and have a little chat with him and ask him to talk to my mother. And that's fine. On the day my son died and I needed to call my mother to tell him to tell her that my son had died. I had my husband navigate through getting my mother on the phone piece because I just didn't have the capacity to even talk to him because emotionally I was that far gone. Like I just couldn't go near that in that moment. And so there is that recognition that my emotional capacity, like if I just don't have any extra, then today, maybe I can't talk to you.

[00:14:17] Karen: Maybe I can talk to a lot of people that day. But that was an extreme example, but you can imagine that in less extreme situations. And that doesn't mean tomorrow I can't. I can't today, or I can't in this moment. If I have some space, if I'm just in a better place, if my reserves are higher. It's sort of like, there's this fancy pair of boots I'd like to buy. Can I afford to buy them? Well, what does my bank account tell me? We have an emotional bank account. That relationship is going to be expensive that interaction is going to be expensive. If I got plenty. Yeah, I, I just got a big bonus, somehow, maybe this is the day that I do some work there. 

[00;14:53] Karen: So, so I think there are a lot of, there's a lot of range about, do we quit, do we quit at all do we put it forever. And it's not entirely about how terrible a person they are. It's very much about what are the specific behaviors? How do they affect me? That behavior that I hate, by the way, doesn't bother somebody else at all. That's also like, what am I bringing to it? And if it bothers me, it bothers me. And that could be a reason to quit. Don't invalidate it because it's only me, but recognize that all of that's going on for me and where I am. is part of what's contributing to it being intolerable.

[00:15:31] Paul: And that I mean, the the tolerating piece is actually an important thing to recognize, because what we're talking about is these these relationships where there is something you're tolerating. Right. You're like, it's not the way that I wanted it to be. There's a thing that I'm needing to tolerate. And your ability to do that is is it comes from you. Right. That's where your reserves, your your ability to be charitable, your all of these things like that's part of your contribution to it is what stamina do you have for sitting with that in the hope that you'll be able to change it. Right. 

[00:16:02] Paul: And in some way, either that you can get them to do it less or you can learn to mitigate or you can do these things. Right. But you have to sit with that. And your stamina for sitting with it is something that comes from you and your situation and where you're at. That's part of your contribution to this. And so it's not all about what the other person does. Right. It is about where you're coming from. that influences your decision-making around that. If you recognize like, yeah, today's a bad day, so I'm not gonna have the conversation today, but that doesn't mean that every day is gonna be a bad day, and so I'm never gonna have the conversation.

[00:16:35] Karen: So we started with the question of when do we quit? And we defined that quitting as being pretty variable. When do I quit a relationship entirely, which may or may not mean quitting a job, for example, or leaving the community, that kind of thing. When do I quit some aspect of a relationship? When do I quit? And when do I quit expecting that I can build a deeper, more connected relationship or heal a thing between us or that kind of thing? So when do we quit some amount of investment engagement emotionally related to another person? And what we said is, A, notice those differences, that there's a whole range there. 

[00:17:13] Karen: Notice the difference between there's a person's behavior that's having an impact on me and that behavior is situational. And so it's the behavior that I'm trying to avoid and not equate that with character. So not say that because they behave in ways that are pretty terrible for me, that that means that they are a terrible person. And then look at what is the impact of staying engaged? What is the cost to me? What is the impact on me and the person and the people around us if I quit in some way? 

[00:17:44] Karen: And weighing that, and we're really wanting to encourage you to say, it might be worth it to quit. even though it will cause harm, even though there is a downside, even though there is a cost to it, quitting could be the best choice. And the other thing to think about in determining if it's the best choice is what is my own capacity here? What emotional capacity do I have in general? What emotional capacity do I have today or in this moment? What are my reserves like? What am I drawing on?

[00:18:11] Karen: And do I have enough to invest in a place where it's not likely to have immediately the things that I've hoped or dreamed for? Like, we're not gonna have that result that we'd really love to have, but today I have the reserves to work on it or today I don't. And so in the midst of 200 plus episodes of all the wonderful things you can do to make your relationships better, we're pausing today to say, and sometimes even if you do all of those things and it makes it better, it doesn't make it better enough.

[00:18:39] Paul: That's going to do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis.

[00:18:42] Karen:  And I'm Karen Gimnig, and this has been Employing Differences.