Paul: 0:08

Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

Karen: 0:14

I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul: 0:16

And I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: 0:18

Each episode, we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, "How do we get people to step up?"

Paul: 0:28

So this is a situation that both Karen and I encounter with the groups and the organizations and the teams that we work with in different ways. But we think there's a lot of commonalities in the roots underneath them. So I want to start by talking about what this tends to look like with my clients. So I tend to work, in organizational contexts. And often this question – "How do I get people to step up?" – is usually asked to me by a leader who's in some position of authority. This is one version of, "I want to empower my people." But often we get the"How do I get people to step up?" Sometimes this is said a little bit more accusingly, like, "Well, they just won't step up," or "They won't take responsibility," or "They won't take ownership. I really want my people to own these things." And where that comes from is usually a feeling of, "I am overwhelmed. I want to delegate effectively to my people, and so I need them to take things and run with it." Or "I know that they have the skills, and they just keep asking me for permission, or they keep asking like what it is that I think." Some leaders are really conscious of this and they recognize they're a bottleneck in their process. They're a bottleneck in their organization. And that's the thing that they want to shift and they want to move. But they're not really sure how to do that. They're not really sure how to get different behavior out of the people that they're working with. So when I hear this question a lot, that's the context I tend to hear it in.

Karen: 2:02

Yeah, and I work largely in communities where we're functioning by consensus, where there theoretically isn't hierarchy – where there is no formal hierarchy. And I tend to hear it related to what I would call informal hierarchy. And what I mean by that is, theoretically we're all in equal power, but in fact, some people have a great deal more influence than others. Some people are doing a lot more of the tasks than others. There are various reasons that shows up, but probably the most common is how long someone's been with the organization. The early founders tend to have a lot of tasks they're doing. They've done a lot of research. They know a lot about the project. They've got a lot of history with the project. That kind of thing. And newcomers arrive with significantly less influence for good reasons. They don't know the history. They don't know how things are done. They don't know the common procedures. All that kind of thing. But there's an awful lot of, "Well, how do we get newcomers engaged? How do we get newcomers to take on tasks?" How do we get folks – and sometimes it's not newcomers, there are other reasons. But how do we get people who aren't helping with the work, who aren't coming to the meetings, who aren't participating in the things that we would like everyone to be participating in; how do we get them to show up and participate? And I think from you and I talking that it's largely the same question, although in a very different context.

Paul: 3:32

Yeah. One of the things that I love about doing the show with you, Karen, is that we can have these things that look super different because of the different types of work that we do and the organizations that we work in and with, and they turn out to be very similar under the hood. And that you actually get to understand that a little bit better by looking at it through two different lenses. So the first place that I go to, when I get asked this question about,"How do we get people to step up?" I always get super curious– and try not to be accusatory – but asking the question, "Well, what's happened when people have tried stepping up in the past?" Because usually the reason why people aren't stepping up is they're getting a lot of messages that are often subconscious or that are that are hard to pin down about how they shouldn't do that. So I always ask, "So when people have stepped up, how have you responded?" And then, "How would they say you responded?" Because usually what we're doing in any social situation is we are doing what we think works in that environment. So stepping up, saying, "Hey, I want to run with this thing," or "I want to do something," or "I want to contribute in some way," that's an interpersonal risk. It's a vulnerable thing to do. And depending on how we have felt after we've taken that risk indicates whether or not we're willing to take that risk again in the future.

Karen: 5:07

Yeah, and I go even further and not only indicates whether I'm willing to take the risk again, it's also indicates whether the people around me who watched that happen are going to now take the risk. So there is a culture about this. And I want to name one other sort of context for me, which is that it may be the case that you have people who actually don't want to do the things you want them to do. That's a different problem than we're focusing on this episode, I just want to say. In this episode, where I'm coming from is we've got a group of people who are willing, who are motivated, who are enthused about their work and their role and participating in the organization. And they're not showing up and they're not participating. So we're going to assume that we're not looking at just somebody who's completely in the wrong role and doesn't belong here. That would be a different conversation. But for people who generally are in the job they should be in, in the community they should be in, why do they not end up participating? And I think you're right, a lot of it can sort of track to what happens when they try to participate. And I think one of the most common things is that if I've been doing a job for a long time and I'm like "I really would like help with this job," I have a lot of clarity about the right way to do the job and how it gets done. And in a lot of ways, what I'd really like is somebody who would just take the tasks from me and do them exactly the way I've always done them. And for most folks – that might work on a factory floor, but we're really not talking about a factory floor. We're talking about creative and relational spaces. And the people that we want in those spaces are going to be people with enough creativity and problem solving and agency and just their own character coming in. They're going to want to bring themselves into it. And they're going to have ideas of how to do things different and better – maybe better for the organization, maybe better for them. But if they're the one doing it, that's also valid in my thinking. And so what happens is the ask is, "Hey, will you come help me with this?" And the specificity of exactly what it is that I want maybe isn't there? And then the answer is,"Yes, I'm glad to help you with that." And it turns out that the"this" and the "that" ain't the same thing. The thing that was asked and the thing that was offered look like they match but in fact weren't well communicated. And so the person– the sort of trainer in this case, or the one handing something off, in the case of hierarchy, the boss – ends up responding possibly directly negatively, or possibly it's in posture and facial expressions, and there's a lack of enthusiasm, oh hum. But that the net communication is, "Yeah, you're not actually doing anything I want. It's actually not good that you're doing this thing." And so the person goes,"Well, I thought I was being helpful." And I mean, I can think of a time I got caught in that where I was part of an organization and the leadership was exhausted. And here's this new person, and they said, "Oh, come to come and be the president to do the thing!" So I got all enthused and said,"Okay, these are the things I'd like to see the organization get stronger in" and I went and read the old bylaws, and I was implementing within their rules. And they went "Wait, wait, wait, you're changing everything. Because we haven't used those bylaws in ages." And I'm like,"Why did you give them to me?" But they had this historic thing. They had ownership and an idea and a way that they were attached to, and they're sort of formal or clear language was all around, "Welcome," and "Yes, come do it," and all of that. But actually, the amount of control that they were willing to hand off was practically non-existent. And so it got into a huge tangle, because what they were asking and what I was offering, we thought were the same thing but in fact were very

Paul: 9:19

So one of the things that is useful to ask when you're different. thinking about, How do I get people to step up?" is "What what might happen if they do?" Because what you're talking about is actually creating a different pattern of relationship and of working in your context. There is an existing pattern that's there, and whether or not you like the results you're getting from it, it's a familiar and comfortable one. People know how it works. So what you're actually trying to do is create a different pattern, where I'm no longer going to be doing this thing someone else is going to be doing it. So now I need to think about – like, honestly, ask yourself if you want people to step up, how might you react if they do? And then go, "Would that encourage them to continue to step up?" and be aware of what those possible things are. How might you respond? And one of the places that can be useful to go is ask people how you have responded in the past. Like the people who are no longer volunteering. And this is where this conversation gets super vulnerable. People who have stepped up in the past, if you can ask them, why they stopped. What you did, that caused them to stop volunteering. Because in any pattern it takes two to tango. Karen, if I asked you to step up, to volunteer, to do something, and you stopped, I have to assume I have a part of that. That's not just about you. And so I need to get curious about what was I doing. So if I'm going to ask someone else to step up, to volunteer, to take a thing on, I need to be aware of how I might be likely to respond and unconsciously, unknowingly, stop them from doing that. And so I think there's a really important question here, that people need to ask themselves when they want people to step up, "What might I do if people do?"

Karen: 11:26

Mm hmm. And two layers of that. So one is, do I really want them to step up? Am I really ready to let go of this. And this is a place where I think a hierarchical environment that you work in is pretty different than the more collaborative or equal, balanced, level playing field that I work in, which is in a hierarchical environment, it's totally legit for the boss to say, "Yeah, I actually don't want anybody to do that." Actually, now that I've looked at myself and thought about it, yeah, I want to hold on to this one. And that's totally legit. In a consensus-based, everybody's supposed to be equal environment that can get you into trouble. And so if you're thinking, I just want to hold on to it, you may have some work to do with the group around what that looks like, and engaging with somebody who might want to take it on, about how you're going to navigate that, that everybody can feel good about it. But I do think that's the first question is, "Would I rather just hold on to it?" And if so, what does that mean? And what do I need to do to either hold on to it or to do my own work and let go of holding on to it?

Paul: 12:33

I want to throw one thing in there that even in hierarchical organizations, one of the challenges that people have as they grow through those hierarchical leadership roles is that they hold on to stuff that they shouldn't. Their boss is telling them, "You are continuing to do your old job, you need to let that go. You need to let your people step up to do the job you used to be in so you can do the job that you're in now." And so that shows up too. There are reasons why we're uncomfortable doing it, but I'll point out that it shows up even in hierarchy.

Karen: 13:07

Yeah, totally makes sense. So that's the first question is, "Do I want to hold on to it?" Recognizing all of the implications of what that might mean and what I might need to do to be able to do that? And then the second question is, "If I actually do want to let go with it, what has to change in me for that to be feasible?" And I would take it even further, which is, "How broadly can I let go of it?" So it's not just,"Okay, you start keeping the books, and if you want to change from the spreadsheet we've been using to QuickBooks, I can let go of that." Maybe I want to let go broadly enough to say,"Should we open the idea of hiring somebody to do it outside? Should we open our whole financials up? Should we look at procedures for how financial information is flowing?" Do I want to really broadly welcome a partner in the role that I'm in or in the work that I'm in or in the projects that I'm in? And if I want to do that, how do I get clear about letting go?

Paul: 14:15

There's a couple of things that I think are useful in that idea of letting go. Because when you're letting go, you're giving up control – or at least the feeling of control – that you have, and you're handing that over to somebody else. And there's a couple of things that I think are useful that can help that process happen. One of them is letting it happen gradually."Great. Right now it's 100% I'm doing this and 0% you're doing this." So if this is something big, we may not want to switch that all at once, where it becomes – and it may not be possible for you to now be doing it 100% and me doing it zero. That just might not be able to happen. So one of the things that's useful to do is look at how might we gradually transition that? What's the first thing that you might step up and take over from me? What's that? And then how can we move through that? And it each step along that way? There's a couple of things that happen. One of them is, I get a much better sense of, "Do you understand the why of what we're doing here? Why does it happen this way? What's the shared objective that we're actually doing this?" And this is the idea of am I creating clarity about why this needs to happen. Because I need to know that you're clear about what it is that we're trying to do – what the purpose of this thing is – rather than just like going through rote the motions of it. And then as you as you do more and more of that, I can feel more like, "Oh, yeah, you understand that." But also, it gives both of us the opportunity to observe your competence, that you actually have the skill to do this. It's not enough that I believe that you that you want to go this way. We both need to know that you're capable of doing it. Once I can see both of those, I can generally feel more comfortable handing off control to you. And you probably feel more comfortable taking it. Probably because my anxiety is going down, I'm relaxing more, the relational space between us is actually easier to work in, because I'm calming down about it. But you're also developing confidence because you're doing it, you're doing more and more of it, you're demonstrating to yourself that you have the skill, and that you're getting the results that you want. So that's kind of often a process that I think about. What does the actual transition look like? If I get to the point where,"Yes, I know that I need to stop doing this thing, and I need someone else to take it over and I need them to step up. I want that. I'm willing to try it. Then what does trying it actually look like?" And I think that gradual process is often one of the better ways that we can actually start to shift that pattern.

Karen: 17:03

Yeah. And within that, I would say, being able to really authentically share where we are. Being able to say, "Okay, I'm handing this off. And actually, I don't really want to." Like there's a part of me that would like to hold on to it. Whatever the story is. But being able to just really authentically name, this is where I am with this. This is how I can support you, this is what I'm going to need from you. These are the pieces that are going to be harder for me, these are the pieces that are easier for me. And both parties doing that. And then building into that transition check-ins of, "I know I'm trying to let go of the thing. I'm probably not great at that. How's it going for you?" And what's that working like on your end? What do you need from me to feel successful in this? What ideas do you have that maybe I haven't heard yet. Just getting really curious and taking time in a very intentional way within that transition to be checking in and see what's working and getting feedback on where am I holding too tightly and where am I not.. So I think that authenticity piece, going with the vulnerability that you've been talking about. And just the intention of the process. The more that we can be really clear about "This is the thing I'm asking you to do. This is the thing I'm not asking you to do. This is where you might get mixed messages for me because actually, I have mixed feelings about this." Those kinds of things really pave the way for both a smoother process to begin with and for cleaning up the mess where it's not smooth.

Paul: 18:48

And it comes down to a largely an issue of trust. And the thing is that trust is what's required when we don't know it will work. We can't actually wait until we are certain that it will work in order to trust. Trust goes the other way around. You actually have to trust first, knowing that there are going to be areas where it doesn't, and that you're able to repair it. And I think this is where we often get caught, in that I want someone to step up but I don't trust that they can do it yet. They want to step up, but they don't trust me not to just stomp all over them or to to react badly. And the thing is that we can't wait for the trust to develop. We actually have to start moving forward as though it's already there. Because that is the thing that actually develops it. It's stepping vulnerably into that unknown space that creates the trust that's necessary to proceed further. And so how can you basically create small windows of vulnerability where we're not going, "Great, it's yours good luck." That zero to 100 sort of thing. How can we proceed through that so that we build the relationship, we build the trust, we build all those things as we work through it.

Karen: 20:06

Yeah. So I think kind of where we've traveled today is starting with how do we get people to step up and looking at both within a hierarchy where it may be a boss trying to get others to step up and maybe not be asking permission so often, and that kind of thing. And in non-hierarchical consensus-based organizations, where there is an informal hierarchy actually at play, and you're trying to transition tasks, often to new people. The tracking that we're going with is first, if you are the person trying to hand things off – if you're the person trying to get others to step up– the first thing is really to look at yourself. Do I really want to hand this off? Am I acting like I really want to hand this off? What am I doing and how is it landing for other people? And probably even asking others around you. Looking for what's happened when I've been in this situation before and where do I need to go with it? And then based on that kind of internal look, decide, "Do I actually really want to hand it off?" If I don't want to hand it off, what do I need to do about that? What does that put me in? And if I do, how can I do that through a process that takes the time that it should take, that is small pieces of vulnerability and trust building along the way, with a whole lot of authenticity and sharing of step-by-step and reasonable bite-sized pieces. But really handing things off and trusting as a lead before we know for sure it's going to work. In fact, we're pretty sure it's going to be messy in some places, and trusting enough to share really authentically what we're experiencing and inviting our partner in this transition to do the same.

Paul: 21:48

Yeah. You know, we make it sound so easy. Or at least simple. It might be simple, but never easy. Well, that's gonna do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: 22:01

And I'm Karen Gimnig, and this has been Employing Differences.