Employing Differences, Episode 114: Is this normal?

Karen: 0:09

Welcome to Employing, Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

Paul: 0:16

I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: 0:17

And I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul: 0:19

Each episode, we start with a question and we see where it takes us. This week's question is, "Is this normal?"

Karen: 0:28

So this is one of those questions that we want to draw your attention to as much because it's important to ask it as because we have an answer. Actually thinking about is there something? Yeah, we're experiencing angst. We have some difficulty going on. We're in some kind of stress or distress as a group. And asking ourselves is this a normally expected stress that we should be getting or is it a sign that we're doing something wrong? Because the tendency is to assume that it means we're doing something wrong. And that in and of itself creates a lot more angst and sort of accelerates all of that. So we're wanting to explore today how useful it is to ask the question, and then perhaps some ideas of how we might go about answering it.

Paul: 1:20

One of the phrases that I end up using a lot with groups is that "discomfort is not necessarily a sign of dysfunction." Because often, particularly if we are used to being comfortable, if we are used to not having to deal with difficult things, if we're used to being able to push those away– I mean discomfort isn't fun. Like no one goes, "Oh, I want to go get uncomfortable." Although sometimes some of us have figured out that's the way through and to deal with stuff. And then, of course, we would think that, "Oh, if it hurts, it must be something that I shouldn't do. It must be a sign we're doing it wrong." And in fact, as you and I have talked about on this show a number of times, oftentimes that discomfort is the sign we're doing exactly the work we need to be doing. Which isn't to say that just because it's uncomfortable,means that you're doing it right. But often it is. And that's actually a role that I often end up playing as an external consultant or as somebody who's seen these types of changes, of behavior shifts, of struggles with groups before. Oftentimes, I will start answering the "Is this normal question?" even before they start to ask it. Because what I do want to do is I want to normalize that discomfort. And I have some concerns about that word, but we can get to that in a little bit. Because as you point out, if we're uncomfortable and if we get anxious about the fact that we're uncomfortable, we now have these two layers that we need to work with. We have the stress of the situation, because it is necessarily difficult to work through conflict, to renegotiate how we're going to work together, to make a deliberate culture shift. That is uncomfortable and difficult and there's stress that goes along with that. When we have piled on top of that, the sort of judgment that we have going along with it, that says we shouldn't be experiencing discomfort, we now have two layers of anxiety to work through. And if we can at least see that, no, this isn't a sign of dysfunction, then we can often let go of that second layer so we can dig more deeply into the primary discomfort that we actually need to get to, which is why I often do that with a group. To help them sort of notice, "Okay, yeah. All right. This is normal."

Karen: 3:54

Yeah. And I think you're pointing right away to one of the ways you can figure out is this normal, and that's talked to somebody who's done this before, potentially an external consultant. And I will say, very much as you were saying, Paul, one of the most useful things I do for groups is say, "Yep, this is right on time." "Yeah, I hear you say that you're struggling with power differentials. And you're feeling completely overwhelmed because there's so much work going on. It's really scary about where the finances are right now." These are various things that are real, true, serious reasons for discomfort. And then I can say,"And I'm thinking that's about right on time. Yep, that is exactly what I would have expected for a group trying to do what you're trying to do at the stage that you're in. That would be what I would have expected." And everybody sort of breathes a sigh of relief, has little nervous giggle going on. It all just relaxes a little bit. Because if this is part of the path to the thing that we want, then we don't have to worry about it so much anymore. And so I do think that one of the ways we can answer that question is talk to people who've done this before. And it doesn't have to be a consultant. It doesn't have to be someone you hire. It can be a peer in some way it can be networks of people who do what you do, people who've been through this process before, your favorite mentor in your field, just people who have seen some stuff. And just have that conversation."This is what we're experiencing, is this normal? It is this supposed to be happening?" And as you said, Paul, just because it's normal and supposed to be happening doesn't mean we don't want to deal with it. But it filters off or peels off some of the layers of defense that make it hard to deal with it.

Paul: 5:46

I love your languaging around that the idea that "This is right on time." Because that is something that I encounter occasionally. People react to that word "normal." And so being able to say things like, "This is typical," or "This is pretty common," or "I would expect this would happen," "It's showing up right on time," "This is a necessary part of the process." All of those are ways of getting the same idea through. And I think it's useful to think about what is the language that works for you when you're talking about it? What is the language that works for the group that you're talking to such that such that they can relax a little bit? And what's great, as I was thinking through that a little bit, they have a finite amount of energy to deal with stress. And so the thing is, if you can take off the stress of thinking that they're doing it wrong, or thinking that this isn't supposed to be happening, they can now redirect that energy into the actual challenge that they need to deal with. And it frees up their cognitive and emotional resources to actually address the challenge more

Karen: 6:59

I think another thing it sometimes does – I don't know if effectively. this is universally true, but it that it sometimes does – is it avoids blame and finger pointing and judgment of others in the group. Because if we think that it's not normal, if we think that we as a group are doing something wrong, we don't very often actually own it that broadly. Very often we start saying, "Oh, well, you know, the leaders have screwed this all up by doing whatever or whatever," or "This person is behaving in this way that they shouldn't, and it's their fault," or "This team didn't carry their piece." We look for the blame of what got us into this situation. What caused this huge uncomfortable problem that we're having? where'd that come from? And instead of what caused it, we say, who caused it? And, and now we're in a whole other level of conflict. If we can say nobody caused it, it's just what we're in. That doesn't mean we don't want to solve it. But nobody did anything wrong for us to get here. This was predictable, unexpected, and it is normal. Then we can begin to say, "Okay, we don't have to look for whose fault it is. We know it's just the thing that happens." So that's another one of those stress layers where instead of,"I'm stressed, and so I get out of my stress by judgment, or I cope with my stress with judgment that I pour all over you and now we're in conflict," we can instead be together facing a problem that is ours together and arrived because of the thing that we tried to do or took on or project or whatever.

Paul: 8:42

Yeah, one of the things that brings up for me is this idea that what you're talking about is instead of going,"Well, the problem exists because of something out there," it's bringing it inward and just going, "Okay, it's in here. It's in this space between us. It's in where we are." Part of what that does is it redirects our energies. Instead of looking for who to blame to go, "Okay, blame is not useful here. So what are we going to do about it?" It moves from the "Why is this happening? to "What can we do about it? How are we going to be in the presence of this?" The other inward piece that I think is useful to think about – and this is complimentary to hey, if you notice this thing coming up, if you have somebody external, or you have somebody who's been through this before, they can give you some perspective – I think there's also a degree of noticing, and maybe operating from the assumption that in this difficult process, if I'm feeling something, that feeling is normal, which maybe means that other people have it too. And so even if nobody in the group has been through this kind of thing before being able to say, "I'm noticing that I'm I'm getting a little stressed out concerned about this. Is anybody else having that too?" Because I think the the desire to know that something is normal is not just to know that we aren't dysfunctional, it's to know that I'm not dysfunctional. That I'm not broken in some way. That I'm not doing it wrong. To have some reassurance that it's not just me. I think a lot of groups, if they hadn't been through it before, they might go, "Well, it's just us. Everybody else apparently solves this problem, super smooth and never has any stress about it." I think we do that at the individual level too. "I must be the only one who's having difficulty with this. I must be the only one who's feeling it." And I think in the kinds of situations that we're talking about, if you can operate from the assumption that whatever you're feeling is a perfectly natural and typical and not unexpected and a right on time emotional reaction to what's happening, and then you can sort of validate that with people around you – "Anybody else feeling this?" – that decreases the anxiety level as well. Knowing that it's not just us and it's not just me.

Karen: 11:07

Ahat that speaks to is belonging. Instead of, "I am the outsider feeling this weird thing, that's the wrong thing, that I shouldn't be feeling. Why am I so anxious about this? Nobody else is anxious about this. What's wrong with me?" That isolating story? Instead, we get the belonging story of,"Wow, we're all feeling kind of stressed and anxious." Or some of us are. some number of us are. But that sense of the thing that I am authentically feeling is accepted here, is safe here, is part of being part of this group, and is welcome here. In part, because, yeah, the "me, too" effect. Yep, I've got that too. I'm feeling that too. That sense really does help with the safety, because belonging and safety are so intertwined for humans. If we can get that, then we've got a much stronger basis. And then we've got a whole other capacity for vulnerability to do the work we need to do around it. If we're already topped out on vulnerability because we're feeling isolated, because we're feeling different, because we don't have that sense of belonging, then we're not going to have the capacity for that extra piece of vulnerability that requires us to go look at what's actually going on here.

Paul: 12:34

To bring this around to the phrase we start the episode with, this is about noticing what the effect of these feelings are on the space between. Because what can really happen is that anxiety that,"I'm doing it wrong, we're doing it wrong," can be isolating. It can cut us off from one another. As opposed to, when we move more into this normalization, and we move into this idea that this is usual and unexpected and welcome and present – that's actually connective. That can actually help us to connect with one another, which is a way more effective space to be in when we're dealing with the sorts of problems that bring these feelings up. And so just noticing the effect of asking and answering the question and talking about that on the space between – on the relational space in the group – and how that gives us way more resources to draw on to address the problem that's making us ask the question in the first place.

Karen: 13:37

And I want to give just a moment, before we close out the episode to what if the answer is it's actually not normal? What if the answer is there is something going on here that we wouldn't expect to see, that wouldn't be usual in these circumstances? And that's also really important, because then we're less likely to just shove the whole thing under the rug. If we can say, "Okay, there is something odd going on here. Where is that coming from?" I think we still want to be careful that we don't go to the blame and judgment place, because that's still not going to be very useful. But is there a piece that we missed? Did we not hire a consultant we really needed? Did we not have the physical space that we would actually need? Are we lacking a staff person? Maybe this is happening because somebody's out on maternity leave and we didn't plan for that – like we're actually short-handed in a way. Can we look for what is the thing that is causing this unexpected stress and strain? Because that's fixable in a different way. If your within normal, then we have to figure out how to live with these circumstances because these are the circumstances we're in and how to cope with them better. But if it's not a normal thing, if it's not a thing that we would have expected, there may actually be a place where we can go back a couple of steps, and correct an error that we made, and get to a much better place more quickly. So I think you do want to ask the question – and I think normalizing especially feelings and that people are anxious and things like that, you don't want to isolate that. But at the same time, if we're like, "There is something weird about this. Nothing about our circumstances suggests that we should be experiencing the kind of stress that we're experiencing. What are we not seeing?" becomes a really useful question.

Paul: 15:36

And both situations are really about how can we turn towards the problem rather than– because that's the real thing that tends to happen. People experience the discomfort, they try to sweep it under the rug, and they try to pretend like it's not happening. And ultimately, for most things, that's not useful. It's about engaging your curiosity about what's going on. Noticing that it's there, and then being able to really diagnose. What is actually happening here? Rather than saying "Something weird is happening. We should avoid it. We should not talk about it We should move away from it." Regardless of whether it's it's normal or typical or expected, getting curious about it, so that we can make better decisions about what to do rather than just out of a place of anxiety. The anxiety as compass, as I sometimes like to think about this. Discomfort is telling us there's a thing here that we need to learn more about. We don't want to point away from it. We may not want to run headlong into it. But we should at least understand what it is that we're dealing with, so that we can choose an appropriate course of action.

Karen: 16:58

And no surprise that curiosity comes up when we're talking about the space between. And so what we're saying is get curious about whether the thing that we're going through is normal, not because it tells us whether or not we should do something about it, but because it tells us potentially that we can peel off some layers of anxiety. When we feel a sense of belonging, when we feel that there's an explanation, we can be less likely to be sort of finger pointing and judging each other. We're more likely to just go, "Okay, this is part of the deal. We're uncomfortable, we can address it, but we don't have to worry so much about it." Relieving that worry creates a greater capacity for the work and the vulnerability that are required to actually address it.

Paul: 17:47

Well, that's gonna do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: 17:51

And I'm Karen Gimnig and this has been Employing Differences.