Paul: 0:08

Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

Karen: 0:14

I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul: 0:16

And I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: 0:17

Each episode, we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, "What if the boss is wrong?"

Paul: 0:27

So we focus a lot on collaboration and on the collaborative space between. And one of the things that we've talked about before is the effect of power differentials and hierarchy on collaboration. I have a specific case of that that I want to dig into here today, with Karen's help. This is something that I run into fairly often. I'll be working with somebody and I do a lot of teaching about different models for communication or for collaboration or things like that, and what will sometimes happen is the person I'm working with will say, "Great. I get what you're saying. That makes perfect sense. I understand that we could be way more productive if we did this thing in this other way. But I don't – and the group that I'm working as part of doesn't – have the authority to make that decision." A great example of this is deciding what teams are we going to put together and who is on those teams. Rarely do the people on those teams get to decide that. And actually has a big influence on the effectiveness of teams. And so it's a case where I've worked with somebody who says,"I understand what you're telling me about these things that we can do that influence the effectiveness of the team, but none of those are in the team's control." That's the boss's job, or maybe the boss's boss, or maybe a secret cabal that meets somewhere in darkened rooms with hoods. They're the ones who decide what teams we put together. So how do I tell them that they're making a mistake? They're doing it wrong? What chance do I possibly have of influencing these authority figures who are making decisions that impact me directly and the group that I'm working with? How do I actually be collaborative with them about that?

Karen: 2:23

Yeah. And I will say that, I think that that hierarchical situation that you're describing is a really clear, clean, you can really see the example of it. And that feeling of "I can't function the way I want to in a collaborative space, because someone else with whom I don't have enough of a relationship to fix it." I can't do all that relational stuff that we talk about in the show. Somebody else is making decisions or doing things that are interfering with me doing what I need to do, and very likely interfering even with something they want me to be doing. How do I communicate that? Other situations may get more cluttered, but the core question is the same, which is when we're dealing with someone that we don't have a close relationship with but does have a lot of influence – or maybe just isn't willing to do the relational type work that we'd like to do, so we can't use those tools, for whatever reason– how do we influence the decisions that they're making? Or perhaps the behavior that they're having, but we'll stay in the decision land for this episode. How do we influence them if it's not with the relationship tools that we've got?

Paul: 3:46

Because of course, the thing that I will always come back around and say is "Well, you should lay the groundwork for this, so build a good relationship with that of them ahead of time." I mean, that's also true. But also, there's no time like the present. So fundamentally, I think when you're trying to influence someone around something, you have to start building the relationship right then and there. It would be great if you already had it. But all of the same things that you can do to build relationship not in the moment of crisis are also things that you can do that in there. Which I think is things that we talk about a lot. So things like getting curious about what they're doing, why they're doing it, what matters to them?

Karen: 4:32

Yeah, I think that's a really good starting point. Start with the assumption of good intent, like we talk about that. They're just another human doing the thing, and they're probably doing the best they can. And if you don't have a relationship with them, I'm going to assume that you don't actually know everything that's going on in their world – and maybe not even very much of what's going on in their world – and that they don't know very much of what's going on in your world. That just goes with "the relationship isn't strong." And so the first thing I want to do is gather any information I can get about why they're doing the thing that they're doing or not doing the thing that they're not doing. That that thing I wish they'd do differently? Why is it the way that it is? And what's going on for the person who could change it that's making it not get changed? And there's probably at least two pieces of that. One is the piece about, what do they want? Do they want the thing that I want? That goal that I have that I keep getting stymied in because that thing isn't going my way? Do they actually share that goal? Or do they have some other goal or some other priority, and they don't actually want the thing that I want? Especially if you're in a hierarchical situation, you want to get clear about that. It might mean making some decisions. And then part two is, what else is going on in their world that's preventing them from or that's getting in the way or contributing to the situation or whatever that is? What else is going on there?

Paul: 6:10

Yeah. One of the questions that I like to ask myself as a prompt to get curious around some of that stuff is, "What must be true such that what they're doing makes complete sense?" That's the thing that that helps me to get curious about what's going on around them. If I assume that what they are doing – given what information they have, what factors are motivating them, whatever else is going on in their environment – if I assume that this all makes sense, that it's coherent, that must point me back to some other things that I don't know about. And it's useful to get clear on that. And you're right, you can't know everything about what's going on with them. But you can start to get curious about that. I find that that helps me come to that place of building the relationship, not out of judgment or contempt, but from genuine curiosity. Because now I can start to approach it relationally as opposed to transactionally. Instead of"What kind of deal could I make with them in order to get what I want?" Now, it becomes more of okay, they did not wake up this morning and go, "I am going to ruin your day." If I can start from that place and go, given what they what they know, and what they care about, and what they see, and they are reasonable human being, why might they be doing what they're doing? And I think that's a useful steering prompt for the curiosity. And I think that when we express curiosity about what's going on with other people, it opens the door for them to be curious about what's going on for us.

Karen: 7:56

Yeah, which is a nice segue to the next thing that I want to be thinking about, which is, "What do I know that they don't?" Because we're talking about my workspace. They're probably responsible for 50 things, and my little world is just one of them. So clearly, they don't know everything that I know about my space, or my problem, or what I'm trying to work on. So what is it that I know that they don't know that would help them understand why I need what I need? How can I help them be equipped with the information? They probably don't even know what question to ask. They may not even know that there's a problem. And if there was a problem, they might not know what they would need to know to understand and how to solve it. So getting really interested in what's the information that I have? Not just what I want. It's not just this is the thing I need. But what what is it about my situation that makes that make sense? What information would be useful to them? And then part two is and what is the vehicle by which that information might actually land in their brain? Maybe it's to write them a memo. That could be a great way. But if all that happens to a memo is it sits on their desk, and they don't ever look at it, then that's not going to be the thing. So looking at what we know about them, and how do I communicate that? Are they a person who wants lots of detail with everything backed up behind it? Are they a person who you've got about 100 words and that's all they're ever going to see? It's got to be short and sweet. Are they a person who wants it in writing? Are they a person that you should try and snag at the watercooler? Or are they a person that you need to go through an intermediary who has more access? Just thinking through what is the thing that they need to know and what is the method that will result in them knowing it? Not that I've said it, but that they actually know it – which turns out to be a different thing.

Paul: 9:55

And the third piece I'll add to that is the "And how might I know that they know it?" Because this a the thing that I've run into all the time. I've worked with bosses where I'm like, "This is a problem that I'm having." And I've repeated it however many times. We've talked, it's shown up, and they're always talking about this other thing. "Well, we need to deal with this, we need to deal with that." And so I finally with at least one of them, I got to the point where I could say, "Could you stop just a moment and tell me what you think the problem that I have is?" With one of them, at least, he was actually able to articulate it. And so I knew that he understood it. And so I was able to go from the place of, "I need to keep repeating this thing, because he doesn't understand it." Now I need to go, "So he's landing on a different solution to this problem that I am. Let's talk about that." And now I can talk about, "Okay, so here's why what you're proposing wouldn't work for me. But I at least know you know,what my problem is." What's the challenge? And so I think it's important when we're trying to get this information to somebody, What's the information they need to have? How can we effectively get it to them? And then how can we validate that they have it? Because at the point where we validated that they have it, and things still don't change, then we need to change tactics. Now we need to go to that next level. But very often, when people are anxious and they're in problem solving mode, that behavior of acknowledging what the other person's concern actually is – summarizing it, repeating it back to them, so that I know that you know what I want you to know – falls out. And so I think it can be really useful just to check in and go, "Do they know what this thing is?" If they do know it, then maybe it's 50th in their inbox and so it's prioritization issue. It's not an understanding one. But until that point, we need to help the information land where it needs to land.

Karen: 12:06

Yeah. And I think there's a caution in this. If you're asking the boss to change something, to pay attention to something, to engage with something, there's a fair chance they'll change. And there's no guarantee that it will be exactly the way you want it. So I do think there's a piece of this that I would go into it with the assumption that, in addition to the things that I know that they don't – and I can fix that problem – there's a bunch of stuff they know that I don't. And if we go and stir that pot, we are not going to have control of what comes out of that. And so I just want that caution in there of, look at what's realistic, and what's going on, particularly in a hierarchical organization. I mean, I could certainly imagine a case where you'd say, "You know, we're not going to be successful unless we get two more team members." And the boss very wisely looking at the priorities of the company goes,"Okay, well, that's too expensive. We're not going to do that thing at all. You're all laid off." Because now they understand. And that's obviously a doomsday scenario. But but there is that piece of don't be surprised if you do manage to get your boss's attention and the result of that is changes you didn't expect. It could be fabulous, could be terrible. Could be something in between. Or it could be that they actually needed to lay everybody often and as inconvenient as that is you're at least not stuck in a non-functional team. So there's an upside, perhaps, but yeah.

Paul: 13:48

And the other piece around that is that – this is a piece of advice that I often give to people when you're in a situation where you don't have the authority or control to do something about this particular thing. Part of the useful thing you can do is create transparency about the fact that it is happening, and what the cost – in terms of what the boss cares about – actually is."Because this thing that we can't control keeps happening, this is the cost in terms that you care about." And that's part of the figuring out what matters to them. It's not, "We are all angry at each other" if the boss doesn't care about feelings. Then that that's not relevant. But, "It's costing us a million dollars every quarter." If they're financially concerned, that matters. So making it transparent and making the impact of it relevant to them, sometimes that is all that you can do. Because what can come back around is, "Yes, I'm aware of that cost and we're making a clear decision to actually live with that." And the thing is, that's a way less anxious environment to be in. Because then I may not like the fact that we're two people short, but I at least know we've made a clear decision to do it. And I may understand what the reasons for that decision are. And that's where, again, the thing that the other person knows that we don't know, when that becomes clear to us, then oftentimes we go, "Oh, okay, I see." This is the transparency on both sides. And it may be the decision doesn't change at all. It may be the decision changes in weird, unexpected ways. But this is something that you want to do when you're not comfortable living with the status quo. There's a reason that you actually want to try to influence the situation, recognizing that in any human dynamic – I mean, in any collaboration, you can't control the outcome. When you're at a when you're at a one-down situation in a power differential, you can control it even less, but you can influence it. And you have to be cognizant of that going in and go, "Am I willing to live with what comes of this process?"

Karen: 16:09

So just to kind of track where we've been starting off with, "Okay, I see a thing that's not working in my collaborative space. And that thing is not in the control of anyone in my collaborative space. How do I work with that?" How do I let the boss or the hierarchy or whomever know what that is? And I think where we're starting is figure out what's important to them. What matters to them? What works for them? What might in their world be getting in the way? Do they want what I want? Are our goals aligned? And then if they are, what might be getting in the way for them? What do I know that they don't, or what do our team members know that they don't? And then how could we communicate that to them, and how could we find out or verify that they know it? And if we've done all of that, we better be ready. Because if all of that lands, pretty likely one of two things is going to happen. Either they're going to make changes, and change can go lots of ways. Or they're going to say, "Okay, we hear you, we've got it, and we're not changing anything," which is its own angst. You started the whole thing because you were hoping something would change. But either of those can be a good outcome, because it gets you out of the stuck place that you're in. And hopefully out of some of the angst and possibly even resentment and frustration that comes with "there's this barrier in my way that I can't move." If I understand where it's coming from or I know what it's about or it gets moved or something gets moved, probably I'm in a better working collaborative space, which would be the reason to get into this whole process to start with.

Paul: 17:56

Well, that's gonna do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: 18:00

And I'm Karen gignac, and this has been Employing Differences