Karen: 0:08

Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

Paul: 0:15

I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: 0:16

And I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul: 0:18

Each episode, we start with a question. And we see where it takes us. This week's question is, "Is this reasonable?"

Karen: 0:25

Reasonable is just one of those very interesting words. I think that we use reasonable and I think we'll talk about some other words that have got pulled up. It's kind of like, "Well, it's just a reasonable thing to do" is just code for, "It's the right thing to do," and suggests that we're having a hard time seeing any other perspective. In fact, whether or not something's reasonable is not an objective measure. It's not inherent to the thing that it's reasonable or not. It's very much related to the environment, to the past experience of the people involved, to what expectations were going in. And so it's one of these really loaded questions, I think.

Paul: 1:22

There's, I think, two places that this tends to come up for me. So one of them is in the space between, where it's like, "Well, I'm asking for a thing, and I think it's reasonable." And so I'm kind of putting that out there, saying,"Well, it's reasonable, why aren't you doing this thing?" Or"You're doing something that's unreasonable," is another place that that tends to show up. So it shows up in that space between. I think the other place, it shows up is occasionally I think to myself,"Wait, am I being reasonable here? Have I gone so far down some road of my own thinking that what I'm doing is sort of outside the realm of social acceptability? That I've completely forgotten how this might appear from the outside?" I think that that second thing can be kind of interesting to dig into. But I think where we really want to start is that place of how reasonable shows up in the space between. Because it is, as we've talked about before, I think largely about our expectations. We often talk about things as being reasonable when we think we can expect a thing or that we are entitled to a thing. That we are not being unreasonable to ask for that. And we often tend to use it towards other people when they are asking for a thing that we don't think they're entitled to or we don't expect that we should be asked to do. So I think it has way more to do with our personal experience of the situation than it has to do with anything objective that's out there.

Karen: 2:58

Yeah. The ideal for me is that we just get clear about what reasonable does and doesn't mean in this situation, or how does that play out? Because I can easily imagine between you and I, Paul – we have a relationship where we speak to each other openly and feel pretty safe and can give feedback – that you could say is "Am I being reasonable?" and I could say, "You're being absolutely reasonable, and what you're asking for just isn't gonna work for me."

Paul: 3:28

Yes.

Karen: 3:31

Which is contrarian in its own way. It's not what you're hoping for. When you say,"Am I being reasonable," you're hoping that if somebody says you're being reasonable, then they'll give you your way. If you're being reasonable, you should get it. And what I'm pointing to is, it's possible to be completely reasonable and in an environment where getting what you want still isn't going to happen. Or for that matter, being completely unreasonable and "But I can go with that." Like, "No, I don't think you're being reasonable at all, but it's not a big deal to me. I can do what you're asking for." And so if we can disconnect that sense of whether it's reasonable from the question of "What's going to happen next?" And again, fill the space between with both a bit of a validation."What you're asking for is completely reasonable. It's just that it doesn't work for me." I'm not dismissing or judging you. But I'm also holding for myself what actually can happen, what actually can feel good to me, what actually works with my situation.

Paul: 4:37

I think there's another word that's similar to this that I often like to deconstruct right, which is accountable. So reasonable just means that you can give some reasons for it, that you have a reason for thinking that. That doesn't mean the other person has to accept your reasons or that those reasons are as valid for you as they are for them, things like that. But I think that this gets into something we've talked about before that anytime any of these sort of value-laden words show up, that it can be very useful to step back and get into some specifics. Because reasonable, like fair or – as we've talked about recently – respect, any of those things, is very abstract. And if we don't have the same set of experiences

as another person – Spoilers: 5:30

we never do – then it is reasonable that we could come to different interpretations of what those words mean. And so when I find that we get caught into this back and forth around these abstract terms – "You're being unreasonable." "No, I'm not. Here's why it's reasonable." – I find it useful to step back and go., "So let's talk about some specifics." In this particular context, when we're talking about, for example, how we might make a decision about where we're going to go on a vacation, and you say, "Well, you're being unreasonable about what you want out of a vacation." And I'd be like, "Let's deconstruct that. Here's some specific things that I think I would like or where I would go to." And ask the other person, "Which of those are inside your range of reasonability or not?"

Karen: 6:28

Yeah. And I think also getting to what's the thing getting in the way. So it can be totally reasonable that you would like to spend 10 days and want that amount of time and take it all on these activities, and that all makes perfect sense. And I'm sitting here looking at the budget and our checkbook going, "That doesn't work." And so that's not reasonable to actually do that. And maybe I'm thinking of hotels, and you're thinking of tent camping, or who knows. But if you can get to what's going to work. And to be able to talk about the feelings. I think sometimes we use words like reasonable – or another favorite of mine is appropriate. "Is that appropriate?" And we often, I think, use those so we don't have to say, "That makes me nervous," or "That scares me," or "I don't like that idea." That more feeling oriented, which by the way, is way more vulnerable. It's so much less vulnerable to just declare something unreasonable or inappropriate, or put those values, judgment-laden words in it, and not have to deal with what's real. Which is my anxiety over being away from work that long or something. Something that that, frankly, I may know, is not reasonable, but it's still real. It's still me, it's still what I'm experiencing.

Paul: 8:00

Yeah. I think when we step out of the high level words and really talk about impacts."Setting aside whether or not this is reasonable, if we did this, this is the impact it would have on me." And maybe that is unreasonable that has that impact, but as you point out, it does. That's real. So how do we want to work with that? I think you're right. That language is often a way of avoiding the vulnerability of talking about what the actual impact on us would be. Probably because we're worried about being judged for what that impact on us would be. Like,"Look, if we went and we spent 10 days in the Caribbean on a boat, I would be super anxious, because I wouldn't know what's going on with my business, with the world, whatever that is." And I might not want to admit that, because I know I"shouldn't" be anxious about that. But it's true. And so I can avoid having that whole conversation by saying, "Well, it's unreasonable to want to spend 10 days anywhere."

Karen: 9:16

Yeah, absolutely. And the irony, of course, is that we think that we're protecting ourselves by not going into that vulnerable place. And we might be. Vulnerability by definition is that you're doing anything that could hurt you. And by protecting that, we lose the possibility of the connection and the healing and the understanding, and even the possibility to say, "Okay, so you're gonna feel anxious. I hear that I get that. Are there ways that we can help with that? Are there things I could do to help with that? Are there ways that you could be supported in that? That opportunity to actually engage with the real thing and maybe be way more supportive than you ever expected to be. This is what we hope, right? And maybe not because vulnerability's for real, you could get hurt. But most of the time, when we get vulnerable with people that we care about, what happens is we end up closer and more connected and with a stronger relationship, and in fact, with more resources to mitigate whatever the anxiety or the bad thing or the concern was.

Paul: 10:26

Learning how to engage in that way can be tricky, because we may not be used to it. The reason why we're putting up those defenses is because they've served us well. They've worked as well as they have up to this point. It reminds me of a thing that I occasionally teach. This comes actually out of my applied improv background. In improv, there's this idea of"Yes, And" where we take a thing that somebody is giving us and then we build on it and give it back to them. And someone years ago, taught me that the business version of "Yes, And" is "What I like about that idea is..." When I teach this as an exercise, I give them planning a vacation as a thing to talk about. The way it works is the first person says, "I think we should spend 10 days on a boat in in the Cayman Islands." And then the first thing that the second person does is they say what they like about that idea. They find the thing they can agree with. Then they have to name something that they're uncomfortable with but not use the word "but." "What I like about this idea is we'd be very close to nature. I'm concerned that I'd be away from my connection to my work for so long." So they name the concern they have, and then say, "What if we..." and then they build through that and they alternate back and forth. And what's fascinating about it is exactly what you talked about. We have way better resources for actually solving the problem when we can first, affirm what the other person is giving us but second, name our concern in a way where we're not worried about being judged by the other person for having it. And I think that's one of the big things that when we are able to get over that we actually become a way better problem solvers in groups.

Karen: 12:21

So I think what we're saying here is be cautious of words that are judgment-laden, value-laden, and particularly when they're taking the place of real authentic communication. So when we use a word like"reasonable" or "appropriate" or"responsible" or "respectful," and we throw those out there as reasons that I should get what I want or because we feel safer. Particularly if that word is making me feel really safe and comfy, that's an indication that we want to look for is there a more authentic conversation to be had? Is that cover for a real thing that we could get to and have the conversation about?"Well, what I like about your idea is... and also, what I am concerned about is... and also what I think we might do instead is..." We can have that exchange. Really being willing to name the feelings, to name the vulnerable things, to name the thing that maybe I shouldn't be anxious, and I know I shouldn't be anxious, but the fact is I am. And if we can get out of what should be happening, or what is reasonable to be happening, and instead be looking at what is real and what is true and what are the needs and what are the experiences; that what happens is that we engage with the full available resources to work with the full known situation, or at least the full knowable situation, as we exchange that. So an answer to"Is this reasonable?" The answer is it's probably a reasonable place to start, but it's even better if you get into the authentic place of what is.

Paul: 14:08

Well that's gonna do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: 14:12

I'm Karen Gimnig. And this has been Employee Differences.