Karen: 0:09

Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

Paul: 0:15

I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: 0:16

And I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul: 0:18

Each episode we start with a question and we see where it takes us. This week's question is, "Is this too much influence?"

Karen: 0:27

So we're starting with a premise this week that in any given dynamic, people don't have constant influence, or equal influence all the time. And that can come from hierarchical things, or role things. So, somebody's the boss, somebody is the facilitator of a meeting. Somebody is the leader of a group, those kinds of spaces. And can also come from social norms. People who are articulate and well educated and white tends to have more influence in ways that are not necessarily what we would wish. People who are willing to speak in a meeting didn't have more influence than people who are not willing to speak as much, or not as comfortable speaking up, all those kinds of things. And so the question that we're getting to is when influence is out of balance, which is going to happen, it's not going to be equal all the time. So, when there are differences in how influential people are, or how much influence is happening. How much people are having influence, when there are differences, is it working? And that question of, "Okay, so I know I have more than my share of influence. Is that okay?" Or is it not- or "is it harming relationships" is ultimately what we're looking for here. So, what goes on when we have these imbalances of influence?

Paul: 1:46

And I think you're right to point out that it will always happen. That we're not all the same, and we don't have the same weight as we move through the world. I think it's useful to think about, when we start to think about these imbalances. Like, "Are those imbalances somehow relevant to the thing that we're doing together?" So, I'm just going to throw this one out there. For example, "Karen, you might be a much better painter than I am." But if painting never comes up in the stuff that we're doing, it's- it's not like there might be a huge imbalance there, which isn't relevant. It doesn't impact the way that we are working together. And that's actually, for me, a place to start to get curious. Like, when we recognize that these imbalances, for whatever reason, do exist, we need to be able to start to ask the question, "How would we know if they were showing up and impacting the way that we are working together? And what's interesting is that we've talked before about power differentials and authority, and that I think we each become aware of the impact of unbalanced influence in different ways. And it doesn't necessarily mean that if we're working together on a thing and you're my boss, right, I may become aware of the impact your authority is having on our working relationship at a different time than you become aware of it. That we're each going to be attuned to different manifestations of that imbalance showing up.

Karen: 3:18

Yeah. And this is why, as so often we say, it's really useful to talk about it. And we can be pretty sensitive about it. It can be hard to say "I think you have more influence here, and I'm not showing up as well as I might because of that influence." Or, "Your pulling us in a direction, and my attempt to throw up some roadblocks and express some concerns about it, isn't getting heard." These are the things we would like to be able to say, but often it's tough to say them without saying, "I don't like you and you're a bad boss!" Or something like it lands as this sort of shaming, judging kind of thing. Because we don't have good language for it. And even worse, I think, we have an illusion that imbalance of influence is something to be avoided at all costs. And it's only happening because someone's doing it deliberately and trying to be a dictator. Like, there is this framing around it that doesn't give us space to just acknowledge that it's a thing that happens. It's going to happen almost always. Power dynamics are going to flow in different ways at different moments and in different meetings and at different times. But it's going to be there. And the likelihood that the impact it's having is negative goes way up if we're not willing to talk about.

Paul: 4:44

And I think that one of the things that's useful to do, going back to one of Paul's rules, which is 'talk about it ahead of time', when we start working together. I think it can be useful to think about "What are the imbalances that could show up?", right, that might be relevant here. That, you know, there's probably two or three that are pretty obvious. You know, when we went in any group, like, you start working together so that you can at least just name them, right. Like "This might come up." I think it's really important to name them in a way that isn't blaming one person for bringing them in, right. Because the problem for the group, the thing that lives in the space between, is the imbalance. It's not that, you know, the fact that you have this authority is a problem. The problem is there's an imbalance between us that somehow shows up that impacts how we're working together. That's not something that I need to say to you. You need to fix it, right? That's a thing that we both need to be conscious of when it occurs. So then we can decide how do we want to be in the presence of it, and not being surprised by it, right. To being able to name it, to be able to say. So, for example, I've worked with a lot of managers who- it's kind of their first time being a manager. And one of the things, that in several organizations I've been in that they're really told is,"You have more influence now. You make a bigger splash when you jump into the pool than anybody else does right now, whether you like it or not." And so what it often means is that they hang back from contributing their ideas and opinions. Because they're trying to counter having too much influence. But two things happen. One is they often don't share things that would be super useful. But two, they just feel so constrained and so constricted. And so they're feeling the impact of that imbalance in that moment. And so if they can just be able to name like, "Hey, I'm noticing that I'm starting to be reticent to suggest some of my ideas because I'm worried about having too much of an impact." And then we can go, "Okay, so how do we want to work with that? If we've already talked about that, that could come up and how we might notice that it's coming up. It becomes way easier to talk about in that super anxiety-filled moment when it does."

Karen: 7:08

Another thing that helps with the conversation is if we can- and again, talking about this in advance is useful. But if we can have a culture that says 'it's okay for there to be an imbalance of influence'. And imbalance of 'power'- with another word we use there. That's okay for lots of reasons. And so it's not inherently the case that when I say, well, I think we've got an imbalance here, that that means that bad things are happening. And it really doesn't need to mean that the person who has the most influence is doing bad things.

Paul: 7:40

Mm hmm.

Karen: 7:41

I think one of the dynamics that makes this particularly tricky is that very often the person who has the most influence has it for good reasons, and they're doing good things with it. And the impact of those ideas that they're giving is good for the project, and they're helping us go in better directions. And in spite of all of that being true, there are people who are still feeling hurt, relationships being impacted by the imbalance. And so if you can talk about those things, you can figure out what's the impact both on the work and on the relationships. And sometimes they line up and then you kind of know which direction you want to go. Sometimes it's both at once, and then you kind of have to stop and think about "Okay, which is the priority right now? Which can tolerate losing that benefit?" So can the relationships tolerate getting beaten up a little bit more and we'll 'heal them later'? Or people are going to be uncomfortable for a little while here? And we've said "We think this is the right thing for the project, so we're going to live with being uncomfortable." "We recognize it, it's happening. We're going to live with it." That kind of thing. Or, is it the case that for whatever the reason, the tolerance in the relationships is down, and the project can actually be okay without some of those good ideas? And that that reticence that you're talking about is, well- well, use that. It's appropriate. And so I think this is where an awful lot of discernment has to come into play. And it's super useful to talk about it, hopefully, as a whole group, but also can be side conversations."Yeah, I feel like I was really having an overbearing in that meeting. Is that how it landed for you?" And maybe one-on-one. It's more comfortable to give that feedback. But one way or another, to be able to see not just that the imbalance is happening, that's part one. Let's recognize that it's happening and totally acknowledge it. But also, what impact is it having both on the work and other relationships?

Paul: 9:46

Mm hmm. And I think if we haven't talked about it ahead of time, like there are still things that we can do. But one of the most useful things we can do is to engage our curiosity around it. Because usually when these sorts of dynamics come up, when we haven't talked about them, we can sense that something is weird. That something is going on and. It can be useful for us sort of individually to go through in our heads. Like, "What might be happening here?" "What might be influencing what's going on?" "What is the dynamic that's influencing the way that we're trying to work together right now?" And, you know, and to cautiously get curious about that and ask, "Are other people experiencing this?" Like, "I think it's very useful to name what is happening for you. How are you experiencing this moment?" Like, "I'm noticing that I'm being, for whatever reason, I'm being a little hesitant to suggest ideas." Or,"I'm noticing that because of the way that we're eliciting ideas from people, the same people always go first. And so I know that anchoring is the thing, and I'm probably anchoring on their ideas." So, "It seems like we're not getting as broad a spread as we might be." But if you can just sort of name that dynamic and get curious and ask, "Is anybody else feeling that there's something, something like that going on? Or something else weird going on?" So that even if you haven't discussed in advance that something like that could happen, it creates a space for you to have the conversation then and there without blame, right? I think that's one of the key things. Right? And sort of with that sense of like, "Oh, we're noticing that it's having an impact on us." Okay, "So given that, what do we want to do about it?" And that may mean that after the fact, we want to have a more explicit conversation about. So when that thing happens again, how do we want to handle it?

Karen: 11:38

So I think I'm just on track where we've been. That recognizing that different people and different meanings in different moments at different times will have different amounts of influence. And that the thing you want to pay attention to is 'where is the imbalance?' Where does one person have more influence than another, or one person have more influence than several others, or so on? And what impact is that imbalance having. That thing that's happening in the space between? What impact is that having on the work and on the relationships, and how do we feel about that? And so if we wish to change it, we can think about how to go about changing that, and really being able to talk about it. And just even being able to name it. And also, is it something that we might want to just tolerate? Meaning, that we're we're okay with it? It's worth it because the benefits that it's having are worth the costs, either to the work or to the relationships. And just being intentional and curious and interested and willing to talk about it can really reduce a lot of the negative impacts of these kinds of imbalances.

Paul: 12:49

Well, that's going to do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: 12:53

And I'm Karen Gimnig. And this has been Employing Differences.