Employing Differences

Employing Differences, Episode 144: What do I say to hurting colleagues?

February 14, 2023 Karen Gimnig & Paul Tevis
Employing Differences
Employing Differences, Episode 144: What do I say to hurting colleagues?
Show Notes Transcript

"Don't take away someone's coping strategy without giving them something else that works for them."

Karen & Paul talk about working with people who are dealing with difficulty in ways that are causing problems for those around them.

Paul:

Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

Karen:

I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul:

And I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen:

Each episode we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, "What do I say to hurting colleagues?"

Paul:

So, Karen and I have run into a couple of different situations recently, and this is not uncommon. Where we're talking with people who have something going on. That there is some stress. Maybe that's work related, maybe that's- maybe that's personal related. Something that's happening that they're hurting. Like, they might not necessarily use those words, but that's what's going on. And that often causes interactions with other people, sometimes, to go a little sideways. Sometimes we hear things like, "Well, this is just how it is, right? It couldn't be any different." Or, "This other person is doing this thing to me." That we often hear what can sound like victim stories, where a person doesn't necessarily have a great sense of agency. And they can get stuck in that spot. And it can be very difficult and frustrating when you're working with someone who's in that place. And at the same time, we encounter this cultural barrier around pointing that out, figuring out how to help them out of that spot. Because oftentimes we feel like we're just supposed to sort of let them be. Or maybe if you're like me, you don't want to say anything out of fear of making it worse. So, we want to explore a little bit today what are things that we can actually do when we're working with somebody. Where one of the things that's showing up in the space between is that hurt, is that stress, is that anxiety. And that's getting in the way of the relationship and also of whatever it is that we're trying to get done.

Karen:

Yeah. And I want to lead here with there are cases where something immediately just happened. Someone just lost a loved one or, you know, they got in a car accident on their way in, and by the time they got there- whatever it is, that this is a short term, temporary thing. And that's its own kind of category. I mean, I think we mostly do pretty well with that. You know, being present and being willing to listen. Like, you expect that day to be different or that week to be different, or they may take time off. And depending on how big a deal that is, it may go on for some period of time. But where there is a known thing that's really out of the norm, that is a reason for that person to be different. And so I think in those cases, a whole lot of empathy, a whole lot of compassion, a whole lot of 'This is not their day to be their best selves'.'It's my day to be my best self kind of world' I think is really appropriate. What, what I think is harder, and what we want to tackle in this episode, is when it's not that acute problem. But more it's an ongoing way of coping. Where it's a person who, over a period of time, pretty much when things aren't going their way, or when they're having a hard time, they come in with that sort of vulnerable sounding 'I'm hurting'. You know, either I'm, you know, "I'm always really stressed" or "I have health problems" or "I have- But there's always this 'I have a problem', 'I have a need', 'I have a hurt'. And so, 'you're supposed to take care of me, make my life easier, do the thing I want, give me my way'. Whatever the answer is, that it really shows up as a consistent, persistent coping mechanism for them. Or a way of interacting. Or a way of having power in a group. And we all have ways of having power in a group. So this is just one of them that we're talking about. And we're not wanting to judge it as any worse than any other way that we cope or have power in a group. But we do want to just explore when you're with someone who uses that strategy as a way to cope. What do you do with that?

Paul:

You know, one of the things that I've learned is that you don't take away someone's coping strategy without giving them something else that works for them. Because, I mean, when we're in a situation, particularly where we feel like we are not at choice. Where we don't feel like we have much in the way of agency, we don't really- where we do feel like these things are happening 'to us'. Or whatever it else is that's going on. Like, there's an emotional need that we have there. And that strategy that we're using, right, of, of maybe saying, "Oh, woe is me". Of saying "This person always does this to me"."This always happens." Like, that is a way of dealing with that. That in the short term, in the immediate term, can often get our emotional needs met. And that's why it's a coping strategy. It's a strategy for coping. And we wouldn't do it if we didn't get something out of it. The problem is, is that in the long term, it's corrosive to relationship. Because it doesn't actually, and in a lot of ways can disconnect us from the other person who are interacting with. We might get our needs met, but we may be building resentment. It's very often, what's happening there. And so it doesn't necessarily work in the longer term. But if I'm working with somebody who has that chronic- like, "things always happen to me". This is not acute, right? This is ongoing sort of thing. And I'm noticing that the relationship is starting to wear a little thin. Or, "I would like that pattern to be a little different." "I can't just tell them to suck it up, buttercup." I need to- I need to give them something that's going to work on that stress. On that anxiety, on that emotional need, at least as well as what they're doing now. And so we need to not ignore that there's a reason why they're doing this.

Karen:

Yeah. So I think that's the first thing is we want to have compassion and we want to be strategic. We want to be thoughtful about "Here's a behaviour that's not working for me, but it is apparently working for them". And so if we're going to try and shift anything about that, we can't just tell them to quit it. And it doesn't help to judge that behaviour as bad or wrong or, you know,"they're a terrible person. We just have to get rid of them". I mean, that may be true, but that's a whole different strategy. We're going to assume here that that's not one of the options we're willing to consider. And so I think looking at "what can we do that avoids the damage to the relationship that's happening?" And I want to be clear that the relationship damage doesn't happen only because they come in and use this coping strategy. The damage to the relationship happens because they use that coping strategy. And then I respond to it in a way that doesn't actually work for me. It is that system of two that creates the problem. And I see this in the community work that I do a lot. Communities, you know, pride themselves. We come in to community because we want to be in these loving, caring, compassionate relationships. And so when somebody shows up and says, you know, "Oh, that's terrible. And I just feel beat up and it feels-", you know, "That's just hurts me terribly." For whatever reason, that sort of knee jerk reaction is to say, "Oh, well, we have to take care of them. We can't hurt them. We have to do what they want." And it is that dual pattern that is problematic in community. If either side could change the behavior, you wouldn't be getting the built up resentment. And you wouldn't be getting the weird power dynamic that goes on with that, that gets people really frustrated and unhappy. So naming that there's the two sides of it. And of course, if I'm having this conversation, it's because I'm having to figure out how to respond. So, that's really where we want to work with, is these behaviors may come up, but how do we respond in ways that are useful, productive, honoring our own agency. And our own interests, and our own relationships. Without disrespecting or 'putting down'. Or otherwise creating a different kind of damage in the relationship. So it's this, this tricky line to walk.

Paul:

Yeah, recognizing that it takes two to tango, that we have our part in the pattern is a place that- we've talked about a lot on this show. And so that is the question of "Great, what my leverage for something different happening is me responding in a different way to this behavior." But how do I- what is a useful response? And where I go is, is not actually so much the line, but the grid. Because we often feel like we have two choices. As you kind of said, "Oh, we can just care take. This person's hurting." "So, we're just going to take care of them. We're not going to ask for anything." "We're just going to make sure that their needs", you know,"get met." Or we feel like we can just be totally unaffected by whatever they're going through, and stand for where we were. And not be affected by it at all. And still hold to what we need out of this situation. And I tend to see that as a false dichotomy because I think what we actually want to do is we both need to make sure that we don't get thrown off totally off balance by what's going on. Like, we need to attend to our own upset. Because for me, for example, when I'm working with somebody, I'm dealing, talking with somebody who's in a state of long term emotional distress. When someone's- if someone is upset, like it's very easy for me to catch that, right? "I'm now upset that they are upset because I take responsibility for their feelings." That's my own thing. But it's like, "But what do I need to do so that I know, so that that doesn't happen to me?" And then, "How can I acknowledge what they're experiencing and offer them support? And still actually show up for the things that the community needs, that I need?" Whatever it is, the work that we need to do, is there."How can I walk and chew gum at the same time?", right? So how can I do both of those things, of supporting the other person and still setting expectations? Being clear about what we need to do, being, you know, moving the work forward, standing for my own needs. Not just feel like I have to choose one or the other, at the expense of the other.

Karen:

Yeah. And one of the places I look to for this is "What is the impact of this dynamic that I would like to avoid?"

Paul:

Mm hmm.

Karen:

So, maybe it's all fine, except I'm just feeling resentful, and then I want to do my own work on resentment. I'm guessing that's not actually the whole answer. But, you know, that's one possibility. But more likely, there are impacts. Like, we're spending way more time talking about their feelings, and not enough time talking about the topic that we were supposed to be getting together to talk about. Or we're focused entirely on their needs, and not noticing the needs of other people, related to the project or whatever. But if we can look at what's the negative impact, I think that really is the road to 'how do we change it'. Because ultimately it's not the behavior we need to change, it's the impact. So if, you know, they may be going to continue to do that thing. And that can be okay. If I can shift how I respond to it, in ways that will redirect, or shift a different way. And so I think one of the things is just 'notice what is the dynamic'.'What are the two sides?' And then 'What is the impact that it's having?' So if, for example, the impact it's having is that we're talking about that person's needs and concerns, and we're not talking about the business at hand, the thing that we got together to talk about, and that's a problem for me. Then I want to think about 'how do we keep the conversation, or direct the conversation, or get the conversation, to be on the topic that we're looking for'. So that that's an example. And if I can get clear that that's what it is, then the next step that really flows from me from that would be, 'Structure your meetings.' Have more structured input. So that it's not as open ended. The more open ended it is, the more possible it is for people to adopt whatever strategy they use for having more power, or more influence in a group, or getting needs met. So that's an example of if that's the problem, getting more structure around it. Any structure that has particular prompts for giving input, or that kind of thing, could really help.

Paul:

Mm hmm. One of the structures that I find really useful, both together and, you know, in a group and one on one- and I guess this is more of a technique than a structure. But it's the tracking the 'two things'. And naming the fact that there are these multiple threads that are going on at the same time, and trying to sort of tease those apart. So, for example, right, if I'm working with somebody. And they're under a deadline, you know, there's a whole bunch of stuff that's sort of coming at them. And what I'm hearing a lot is, again, this victim story of like, "There's nothing I can do. This is just how it is." Like, I'm- "I'm under all this weight. I'm feeling out". You know, like, "I'm being crushed by this." There's two threads that need to be worked with there. One is what they're experiencing and two, the problem of actually getting this stuff done. And we actually need to work both paths. And so I find it often useful to name. So, "It sounds like there's a couple of things going on here." "One, is you're feeling under the gun around this and that's causing you a lot of stress. And you're not really sure how to how to deal with that." "And the other is, this stuff that does actually need to, you know, to get done." "I think we need to dig in to both of those, but not letting either of them slide." So, to sort of keep- and in groups, like, you could do the same thing. You talked about this on the show before. Of this, like, "We want to make sure that we talk about the problem we're trying to solve. But we also want to make space for people to talk about their emotional reactions to what's going on." So, we need to actually have a way of dealing with both.

Karen:

Yeah. And again, putting that, that structure around it, just exactly the way you're saying it. I think another piece that can come up around this is where, you know, the needs get all focused on the person who's expressing a lot of needs. And people who aren't as willing to express needs aren't getting heard. You know, maybe they said it once, but it just sort of goes away. And so another frame that I would just offer for that kind of situation, if that's the problem, is, you know, to mirror back."Okay. So what I've heard is you have this and this and this need", whatever they've been saying."Did I get you?" So, we've got that clear. They've been heard. And then to frame, "So, what are you hearing about other people's needs that seem to be getting in the way?" So, really moving toward, "Okay, we've heard you and now we're going to explicitly hear other needs. Other people's needs." And it may be that they end up saying them again, or it may be that people feed them back. You can also do a pair of prompts, particularly in small group dialogues, of what I need and what I'm hearing that other people need. So, just using those two prompts together as a tool. Because I think where you started is, Paul, around this idea that they aren't going to stop using the dialogue pattern that they're in, unless they have another that will work for them. And so one of the things that I think those folks aren't doing very well is noticing and attending to the balance and the needs in the conversation. They get focused in one place and they aren't good at focusing on the other. So, let's give them a tool to help them focus in the direction that we would like their attention to go to.

Paul:

Mm hmm. One of the things that I love about that is that that kind of tool also helps them. Because oftentimes, what we actually need in that moment where we are hurting, is acknowledgement of what we are experiencing. And we're often not good at asking for that. We aren't getting it, right? Other people are trying to brush us off. So, we're not getting an acknowledgement of it. But we're also not good at asking for the acknowledgement of it, because that's a skillful thing. And what you're actually talking about right there, is a tool that actually helps me when I'm hurting to receive acknowledgement of what I'm going through. That's actually a more coherent strategy for dealing with my need, than what it is that I've been doing. So to circle back around on that, yeah, we're actually introducing something that helps that person get what they're needing even better than what they're doing right now. Which makes it much more likely that they'll actually shift to doing something more like that.

Karen:

So I think this is a place where you'll need a certain amount of creativity and self-reflection. The ability to look at this and say, "Okay, why is this a problem? What is the impact that's not working?" And then let that lead to what the direction might be. And we've given some examples, but there could be other impacts. So, some creativity and some problem solving to think through this. And then the other thing I just want to make sure we keep in mind is it can be easy in this situation to say, "Okay, I've done my self-reflection. And I've got this great strategy. And I'm really happy about it." And the thing is, you want to understand going in that you are disrupting that other person's coping mechanism. And even if you're doing it in a careful and caretaking way. And even if you're trying to meet their needs in another way. And frankly, some of the time we don't actually want to meet all the needs that are asking to be met, because it's outside the boundary of what we're trying to do. But any of those things is likely to be uncomfortable for them. They will have a sense that you're changing the rules, and that they're being denied a strategy that they are used to using. And the subconscious is very good at translating that into "You don't care about me", "You don't like me", you know, all of that kind of stuff. So, just to be aware that as we're shifting these patterns that are cultural norms, that we may get some pushback. And it may not feel great the first time. And what I want to encourage us to do is look at it and say, "Did that strategy change the impact in the way that I intended?" And, "Maybe it created some other impacts that I didn't intend. And what do I want to do about those?" But to be willing to work through some discomfort, yours and theirs, to get to a better place. And possibly even to name the patterns that you're seeing. And there may be a point at which you just need to say, "You know, I hear where you are. Where I am is ..." And naming the impact, that kind of more vulnerable sharing of, "You know, I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but I'm actually tired of hearing how sad you are that your cat died three months ago." You know, there's a point at which that may be the thing, hopefully a little more artfully than that. But there is a point at which that needs to happen. But not to expect that they will just happily go along with this. That it is going to be a, a difficult time and it's why we don't tend to do it. And maybe there are cases where we say, "You know what we're going to live with? We're going to live with the impacts that we've got because we don't want to do that more difficult work." But I just want to name that even if you're doing it all right, they may not be happy about it.

Paul:

Yeah, unfortunately, there is no magic wand. And even when you're doing it right, you should expect it to be difficult. Because this sort of, changing that sort of pattern, is difficult. It's a well-worn path for both of you. So, to track where we've been on this today, we're talking about when we're working with somebody, we're interacting with somebody, or in a community with somebody who is experiencing some sort of difficulty. And is in a in a chronic pattern. And they're employing some sort of coping strategy that isn't working for us. And isn't working for the goal, the thing that we're working towards together. What might we do about that? And one of the things that we're we're saying is 'you can't just yank it out from under them because they're doing it for a reason'. They get something out of it, regardless of how unskillful it may be in it. And what the impact on, on you, and on others might be. They're not just going to stop doing it because you ask them to. So, we need to think about what can we actually do instead. That is a better alternative for ourselves, for the person we're interacting with it, for the group that we are part of. What can we do? What structures can we introduce? What tools might we give to actually help those needs get addressed in more effective ways? Part of that is about making space for the fact that there's more than one thing going on at the same time. Yes, this person is hurting and there is acknowledgement of that, that is likely useful to happen. And also, that's having an impact on other people, on the work. On something else, that is also happening. We want to make space for both of those things and make sure that both of those get addressed rather than feeling like we have to choose one or the other. Despite the fact what our natural comfort zones and what our cultural upbringing might be. So, finding ways that we can do that, introducing tools or structure that might help us with that. And even when we find one that is likely to work, recognizing that it's not likely to work the first time. Certainly not 100%, it's not going to be magical. It's going to be difficult. Because what we're what we're doing is we're having to change behavior. Our own behavior, and the other person's behavior. Because this is a pattern, this is a cycle. And so because those are well-worn paths, we should expect some degree of difficulty. And perhaps even some level of, of it not working or feeling good. But our claim is that if we're able to do that well in the long term, that can start to shift in such a way that we can actually relate to our hurting colleagues in a more effective way. In a way that is more connective with them and in a way that still allows us to get the things that we need to get done done.

Karen:

And that's going to do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul:

And I'm Paul Tevis. And this has been Employing Differences.