Karen: 0:09

Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

Paul: 0:15

I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: 0:16

And I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul: 0:18

Each episode, we start with a question and we see where it takes us. This week's question is, "What if it makes them cry?"

Karen: 0:27

So, we got to this one because we're both seeing in the world a time of year when it seems like a fair bit of tragedy, crisis, happens. So last week we talked about what if people are hurting in a broader, ongoing kind of sense and the patterns that come with that. And this week it seemed appropriate to talk about 'what happens when someone, or sometimes multiple someones, in your group have some sort of crisis?' A death in the family is sort of the classic one. Could be other kinds of stressors. Could be a major injury, could be financial crisis, could be a lot of things. But we wanted to just talk about what happens when a lot of people have a lot of emotional strain due to outside things. And that begins to impact what's going on in the office or in the group.

Paul: 1:29

Yeah. And one of the things that I usually start with is the idea that we should expect that it will, right. Compartmentalization is useful only to a very limited point. This idea, and I hear this a lot actually, from clients who are going through a fair bit and they're just like, you know, "I really, I'm really trying to compartmentalize. I'm trying to keep work and life, you know, sort of separate." And I think that that boundary is useful when it's a "I'm creating this boundary because I don't want to have to answer questions about my personal life at work because it's not relevant." And that sort of invasion of privacy thing is a perfectly reasonable boundary to, to sort of create. But also we shouldn't reasonably expect that when we have something that is affecting us deeply, personally. That that isn't going to show up somehow in a different space. In community, in a hobby, group, at work. Like, we should expect that there should be some leakage and that it's going to affect us. And trying to keep it from affecting us will generally make it worse.

Karen: 2:38

Yeah. And I have some personal experience with this. In that I lost my son to suicide, just under a year ago. And then returned to the work that I do, at some point. And grief on something like that isn't a week or a month. It's years, they tell me. Certainly. Certainly, I can attest to the first year. And there is this thing about what do you do with someone when you know they've had a crisis like that? And they're coming back into view. And I will say that before I had that experience, I kind of did the classic thing of,"Well, I don't know what to say, so I don't say anything". Mm hmm. And, you know, I try to be as normal as I can and maybe I choke out an "I'm sorry". But, you know, mostly I just kind of avoid it because I don't want to make it worse. I don't want to say something that will hurt them. I don't want to say something that will bring up painful memories. So unless I know someone really, really well, I tended not to say anything. And being on the other side of that experience, I can say that no one has ever said anything to me that made it worse. That that thing you're afraid that you'll say from a place of caring that would make it worse? It doesn't make it worse. But it might very well make me cry. And so that "what if it makes them cry" question, I think is really key. Because I think that when people are hurting, we need to figure out how to be present with them in ways that allow, on the one hand, if they are compartmentalizing, and that's what they want to do. We want to respect that. We don't want to drag them into emotional processing that they don't want to do. But on the other hand, that lets them be fully present, when for sure being fully present means being with their pain. And they'll cry. And so as we, as Paul and I talked about this. And we started, as we usually do, just with a conversation about "So, what's going on?" and Paul said, "Well, you know, lots of people that I'm hearing about with losses and things like that." And I said, "Oh, well, you know, we could we did the episode last week about the more ongoing thing we could do, the more immediate loss-type pain this week." And then I thought, "Well, that's going to be a pretty personal one for me." And so Paul and I had to navigate that piece. And it's very much an example of what happens when 'what if it makes them cry' is on the table. So, Paul, I'm going to just let you talk about kind of how you approached that with me.

Paul: 5:21

Yeah. And it's, it's a piece of- the concern about making it worse lives at the forefront of my brain, all the time. I think it does for a lot of people, particularly it does for me. And so because I don't want to be the bad person who caused this pain, that's the story I tell myself, that I then- it's very easy for me to sort of retreat and back off and do nothing. Which I know from people who I've talked to about this, can be very isolating. And at the same time, I don't want to pry. So one of the one of my guidelines, and we talked a little bit about this is, I trust that if somebody brings something up, they are capable of talking about it. And they will be as vulnerable about it as they want to, as they feel that they can navigate. That I don't need to- if somebody else brings it up, it's a valid topic. Now, I'm not necessarily going to run it down and go "Tell me all of the excruciating details about this, that and the other thing." But it means that I don't have to avoid it. I'm not- until someone brings something up, I may not dig in immediately and go like, "Oh, I know this horrible thing happened to you. How is that?" But, you know, but so I want to- I trust other people. I trust the person who's going through the experience they know themselves better than I do, right. They may not have perfect knowledge of themselves. They're probably learning a lot about themselves at that point, but they have a better sense of where their boundaries and guardrails are. And so I have to follow that. But part of the following is if they go somewhere, go there with them.

Karen: 7:00

Yeah, I think that's for sure true. And I think, I think there's this weird duality thing that happens that when people don't broach it or seem afraid to or like, then what I do is I don't either. So, now we're not in an authentic place where everything that's in me can be present. And, you know, and when you filter one thing, other things get lost, too. And it's exhausting to have something that's going on in you that you're not sharing. Really, what you just do is disconnect. More or less. Something else disconnects, and the resource gets spent that way. But what ends up happening is that I get better and better, or at least more and more determined to do the compartmentalizing thing. Even with someone who probably be perfectly happy to talk to me about it, but I can't tell that. And so when I'm with people who are afraid to make me cry, I take care of them and don't cry.

Speaker3: 8:01

Mm hmm.

Karen: 8:02

And so I think, I think it's interesting to think about and really talk through when someone comes back after a loss, whether it's a death or some other kind of loss. How do you navigate that?

Paul: 8:18

Mm hmm.

Karen: 8:18

And I think one thing is, if you aren't sure whether an in-person vocal conversation about it would seem appropriate. It's almost always safe to send an email. This is one of the few times where I'll say, "Take your emotional stuff and put it on email". The cards turn out to be lovely. For me, I didn't care if it was a card from a store or if, you know, somebody folded a piece of paper in half or wrote on a piece of paper and just said- You know, any of the generic stuff that seems like it can't mean anything because it's just generic. It actually means something because you put your name at the bottom of it. And then the things that occur to you to say that you're like, "Oh, but that's probably stupid" or- it's not. I mean, I got a lot of those and it's not.

Paul: 9:05

It's not.

Karen: 9:05

Or, "It's been too long. I waited too long." No, you didn't. I'm still in it. Like, there's not 'too late' on this. And so I think that's one piece is, reach out in some way. And it may be that in person, in that environment, isn't the right thing. And one of the things you might say, if it's true is, you know, in your letter or wherever, but that you might say is, "I'm really sorry this happened to you and I'm more than happy to talk to you or listen to you about it, if that would be helpful to you." Like, just that ear is there. So I think that's sort of a first step, is find a way to communicate compassion, care, toward that person. Because it actually- the thing about grief is that it is so lonely. Having that particular person missing is so lonely. That having other people present, in any way, is really helpful, even when I probably don't have the emotional energy to do the, the face-to-face present sometimes.

Speaker3: 10:11

Mm hmm.

Paul: 10:12

Yeah. That doing something to reach out, to create some sort of connection. Regardless of- I love how you said, "as dumb as it might seem", "as empty and trite". And, you know, it's just like, it's something. And for me, like, one of the things that often gets in the way of that going back to this question of like, well, 'what if they cry' is for some people it can be very hard to be in the presence of strong emotions because they take responsibility for those emotions. Like, and this is a thing for me! Where I go, "Oh, if other people are uncomfortable around me, it's my fault. I'm a bad person." And if I, "If I'm not able to just fix it, I should do nothing". But there is a way of being present, of connecting, without taking responsibility for the other person's emotional state. And so by being able to sort of thread that needle, of saying, of reaching out and saying, "I'm really sorry to hear what happened to you. I imagine you're going through a lot" and making the offer of "I'm here if you would like to talk about it. I'm happy to at any time", I think is a way of starting to open that door of we're going to create some connection. And then you get to decide! Like, I'm putting you at choice about how you want to engage with it. But I will start to let you know that you have options. Then there's actually kind of two things in that that I want to unpack at least one of first. One of the things that I try to do, and that we talked a little bit about this as well, is this idea of guessing. I can use my intuition about what might be going on with the other person and express that. Because that is something that is connective. I imagine that you're feeling very lonely right now, or I imagine that this is a lot. Or like, just come up with something that you think is plausibly true in that person's situation. And if you can offer that, but hold it lightly. It gives them an opportunity to think, "Oh, okay, this person is actually paying some attention to where I'm at. They're not disconnecting from me." And then they also have the opportunity to agree or disagree. And either of those is actually useful. And that's different than saying, "I know exactly what you're going through" because guess what? You don't. And sometimes we try to think that in order to express an understanding of what's happening with the other person, I have to be certain about it. I actually think that expressing it lightly, creating the opportunity for dialogue and for engagement. For the opportunity for you to say to me, "That's right". That's one of those ways that we can help create connection in a way that I'm not taking responsibility for the situation. I'm not believing- I'm not creating the impression that I actually know what's happening with you. Because I don't.

Karen: 12:57

Yeah. And I think another application of that same method and same idea is, in terms of trying to help. That we have this instinct that we'd like to do something. And we want to send flowers, or we want to provide a meal. Or we want to like, we want to do something to help, and that we think we know what that is. And this can also get dicey. So it goes one of two ways that goes, can go horribly wrong. One is that people put a lot of energy and investment into making something happen. That, then that person in loss, is forced to accept, because 'polite'. They're being polite, so they accept it. But it's actually like the last thing that's helpful. And then the flip side is that people don't want to do that. So they say, "Let us know what you need". And I can tell you that when I need the most, I have no idea what I need. And I also don't actually know what you mean by that. Like, 'let us know what you need'. But, like, does that mean you'll come to my laundry? Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't! But it's a really weird thing to ask for! Like, you know. And so I think there is this sort of middle ground of "We really would like to do something for you", or "We would like to support you in any way that we can". And, "Here's an idea" or "Here's three ideas. Would any of those things be helpful?" And you certainly can say "And if there's something else, please ask". But the 'figure out what I need and do the vulnerability thing' to tell another person what that is, that's asking a lot. I have someone who's hurting.

Speaker3: 14:46

Mm hmm.

Karen: 14:47

And certainly for me, and I am a do-it-myself person who doesn't ask for help very easily. But certainly for me, it worked far better if people offered specific things. And of course, there's some variability. There were some people who sent- a friend who had done grief before, and I will say people who have done grief know this stuff. But, you know, somebody sent a book. No problem. They didn't spend a ton of money on it. They were never going to know if I read it. It was lovely. Fabulous book, actually. And, and actually two or three other people sent books that I haven't opened the covers on yet. I think that this is the nature of it. But it didn't come with any expectation. It wasn't a huge loss if I didn't do it. But just that thought that if somebody thinks they know what I need, the likelihood of getting, of being wrong, and where that goes. And on the other hand, people do need help. And particularly if you're in projects together, one of the things to think about is "what workload can we relieve?" But not to assume that. And I've seen groups say, "Oh, but, you know, they just had a loss. So maybe we take them off of the list on the committee" or something. Like, not without asking them is my call on that. But you might offer to them, you know, either will change your workload in this way or "Could I take this task from you? Would it help you if I did that" or, you know, that kind of thing? I don't think you want to clutter it up with pretending you want to do something that's actually just to take care of them or that kind of thing. I think you want to be authentic. But those specific offers turn out to be really useful, especially if it's totally permissible for them to say yes or no.

Speaker3: 16:30

Mm hmm.

Paul: 16:31

The specificity is one of the things that reduces the cognitive load of when it's super wide open. It's way too much to think about. And we have no brain for doing that at that point. And also by giving people options or by saying, "Would you like this?" Or "Would you like one of these three things?", that restores a sense of agency. Because if we just try to take care of somebody and not involve them at all in and give them no choice about what it is is happening, that is not helpful because you're already in a situation where you feel like the world is happening to you.

Karen: 17:10

Right.

Paul: 17:10

And so that's another thing that I think threading those needles is recognizing that both of those are traps that we can fall into. We want to be helpful. And so we throw out something that's just a ginormous cognitive demand. Or we over help and remove any- and we rescue, and we remove a sense of agency. Or we disconnect and we do nothing. Those are kind of like, those are the three traps that I see myself getting pulled towards at various times. And each of us has our own pole that will naturally gravitate towards."Mine is to disconnect because I don't want to hurt someone's feelings and be the bad guy, Paul." But recognize that there's a dynamic balance we kind of have to go through between at least those three things.

Karen: 17:55

Yeah. Yeah. And then I think the other thing is the tendency to avoid saying words, or avoid topics of conversation that might bring it up. And you get this sort of sense of artificial shielding. Or it does come up and everybody goes quiet. I've had that happen. And the thing I just want to say is, yes, this is a conversation that might make me cry and that's okay. And the answer is 'what if it makes them cry?' Have a tissue box handy if you can. Like, that's about it. Like, just be okay with that. Know that that's them being fully present with you. That's them being safe enough to have that be what's happening. And certainly choose your moments. When I first came back to work, I was doing a lot of teaching and I sent out a message to all of my students that said, you know, "Many of you have reached out to me and that's wonderful. And I'm appreciating all of the support. And while I'm actively teaching a class, I would like not to hear any of that". Like, I just want to be back to teaching a class. I am going to compartmentalize for teaching a class, as I do all the rest of the time, actually. Sort of, set life aside and teach a class. Which is very different than, you know, 8 hours a day with a lot of interactions and that kind of thing. But picking your moments. And really don't be afraid to touch on things that might relate. Don't be afraid to talk about your kids because I might talk about my kid. Yeah, I might. And I might cry. And that's okay. Or don't be, you know that like, "Oops, I said suicide". It's not an oops if it came up. Like, the last thing I want is to be sort of handled with kid gloves. And so, you know, so don't go that way. And then the other way is, it's really not helpful in that moment to hear detailed versions of other people's loss stories. Certainly, if I'm interested in asking questions, all of that, that's a different thing. And that may be different for different people. But in general, the "Oh, it must be terrible for you. Because, you know, my cousin did that and I watched what happened to"- and on and on and on, whatever that thing is. That turns out not to be particularly helpful. There certainly can be a value in 'I had a similar experience of loss, particularly if it was my own similar experience of loss'. And there's a 'me, too' and an empathy and a you know, "If you want to talk about it, certainly. I've had friends who lost children, who had incredible words of wisdom that were helpful." So, I don't mean, you know, don't empathize or bring that up, but they didn't go through their story of loss. They sort of acknowledged it in a general way and then spoke about what we now have in common kind of thing.

Speaker3: 20:54

Mm hmm.

Karen: 20:54

Or what worked for them, that kind of thing. So. So just being thoughtful not to avoid the topic, and also not to take over the topic.

Paul: 21:03

As usual, This is one of those discernment things, right, of like be aware of the tensions that are at play here. And also, and the last thing I'll add here is, be ready to screw up. And the key there is, for me, thinking about"Look how many times I've screwed up and, you know, and accidentally said something around someone and they started to get emotional about it. And we are still friends, and they still think I'm a reasonable person or we still work together." It's like, trust that we are capable of working through what comes up. And I think that's, you know, I might suddenly feel like, "Oh, I shouldn't have said that because you're starting to get emotional around something" and then I can go, "That's to your point", it's not necessarily a bad thing, right? And trust that that space between can hold that. Can contain that, can protect us, and process, and work through it. Because I think that's, that's often the story we tell ourselves. Is that if we don't do it exactly right, it will wreck everything. And for me, it's reminding myself of how many times I have not done it exactly right and it didn't wreck everything. And in fact, maybe by doing it slightly wrong, the relationship actually improved. Because we've talked about things and worked through it. So not poking at it, but also. Not just completely stepping out either. Trusting that if you cry, I'm not going to turn into a puddle of goo and then try to hide under the table.

Karen: 22:35

Absolutely. So, to kind of summarize main points of where we've been, this may be a season of a lot of loss, or there may be some other season of a lot of loss. But when someone comes back to the workplace after a loss. And that may be a number of people at the same time, or it may be one person. But when people are coming back, the first thing is recognize that that is going to have an impact on how they show up, who they are, how the work goes and team dynamics, all of that. It's not going to be invisible. They're not going to be able to compartmentalise enough that it doesn't make a difference. So what do we do with that? And what we want to do is be as compassionate as we can and as helpful as we can, while also giving them space to be where they need to be, which, by the way, will be different from day to day. Grief is not a constant experience. It's a very up and down kind of experience. And so what we want to do is not be afraid of it, not run away from it. And also not drag them into the deep end of it. Or bring ours in with them. But to be curious and sort of check in, say something which may not be a verbal, say something, but express, somehow, sympathy, of whatever sort makes sense to you. Offer what you can. If that's a listening ear, that might be a thing. Or offer specific things, "I wonder if it would help you to have this" and then they can say yes or no. So that they have that agency still intact, but also can potentially get the help. And all of this can take place fairly quickly after their return or, you know, depending on the loss and where they are with it, it could be a lot later. Don't avoid topics related to the loss. Also, don't bring them up constantly. Find that middle ground. But when those things come up, when you're sitting around the lunch table and start talking about each other's kids and they mention their lost child, it doesn't have to go quiet for fear of making them cry. Because in fact, what we want is a place where it's okay if they cry. And what that means is it has to be okay for the people around that person, for them to cry. And if we can do that, then they can come back and be as present as they can be. While also being supported and nurtured through their loss, and in the end will end up with a better impact on the work, and on the team, and on the relationships. For having done the vulnerable thing of being present with someone else's grief without trying to manage it. And so that's our tips for the day of dealing with grief and crisis and what comes back.

Paul: 25:26

Well, that's going to do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: 25:30

And I'm Karen Gimnig. And this has been Employing Differences.