Employing Differences, Episode 147: Do I have to listen to them?

Karen: 0:08

Welcome to Employing about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

Paul: 0:14

I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: 0:15

And I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul: 0:17

Each episode, we start with a takes us. This week's question is, "Do I have to listen to them?"

Karen: 0:27

And we're really pointing here increasingly strongly in our culture, which is, that listening is a desirable thing. We like people who are good listeners. We like to be listening to people. If somebody asks to be listened to, it is the honorable and good thing to listen to them. And when someone, you know, says, "You're not listening to me", that's not an observation. It's an accusation, typically. Like, there's a lot of weight and value associated with this concept of listening. And we want to ask the question of whether that is a universal truth, that it is always the case. That when someone wishes to be listened to, if you are a, a good person, you will then listen to them. And you can probably tell from the way that I'm framing this that we're going to answer. Not always. No. You don't always have to listen to them. But we want to just explore kind of why that is, and when that is. And how to kind of decide, "Is this a time when listening is the thing I ought to be doing?"

Paul: 1:30

Mm hmm. I think one of the I?" I would just set aside the whole question of whether or not it makes me a bad person, if I don't. I think, you know, we've talked a lot on the show about things that we can do, techniques we can use, ways that we can help people feel heard, and feel listened to. And how that's generally a beneficial thing for the relational space, for that space between. But that doesn't mean we're always capable of doing it. Like, and even when we know how to do it, you know, this is the thing that- as many longtime listeners of the show will know, at the end of every episode, one of us sort of sums up,"Here's where we've been today and here's what we've talked about". And that's partly the practice that we have of listening to what's going on, being able to track it and sort of relay it back. And that's really useful. Well, spoiler alert, sometimes the reason Karen sums up the show is because I'm not capable of remembering what all we've talked about that day for whatever reason. And I suspect there may be moments when it's the, the other way around.

Karen: 2:37

So true.

Paul: 2:37

But- oh, yes. But- and I will sometimes recognize that I have heard things, but they haven't stuck with me. It's a skill that I've practiced. And yet some days, I just don't have the capacity to do that. And so I think the place where I want to start with this idea, of"Do I have to listen to this person", "Do I have to help them feel heard"? Setting that aside, and just kind of starting to get to the place of "Is this something I'm capable of doing right now? In this moment? In this conversation?"

Karen: 3:07

Yeah. And I think there are two track. In particular, one is,"It's okay if it's not". Like, this is just reality. And we need it to be part of our culture, and part of our expectation. That we can say to one another,"I understand you really need to be heard right now. And I just have to tell you, I don't have the capacity". Like, "Even if I could just sit here quietly, it's just- it's not going to come in or...". Or, "For whatever reason, sitting here quietly while you talk just isn't going to work for me. I'm so emotionally triggered, I'm emotionally drained from things that have nothing to do with this. We're in the midst of a conflict that I'm just not in a place in that conflict where I can take you." And there are lots of reasons, but pretending that it isn't true doesn't help. And so we want it to be safe, both to say, "I'd like to be heard" and to be able to say, "I can't do that right now". And I love your thought that it's not actually about willingness. That distinction between willingness and ability is actually not useful. So that's one piece of it. And then the flip side, that I do think we want to track here, is that the ability to listen, and listen deeply, and to hear well, is something that can be built. It is a brain activity. Like music or foreign language, or math, or any number of things. Some of us are naturally better at it than others. And all of us can get better with practice. And so on the one hand, it needs to be okay to say, "Nope, I'm not up for this. I don't have the capacity right now for lots of reasons". And if you're saying that more often than is working well in your relationships, might be a good idea to work at expanding that capacity. And that could be a whole other episode of ways to do that. But just holding both of those things together.

Paul: 4:53

Mm hmm. I mean, this connects to about on the show a lot. One is this idea of being able to say no to requests. That there is a request, and we can actually say 'no' to that because it's not a demand. Does the relational space accept that, you know? And I think where we sometimes- and as we've talked about before, where we fall into trouble is where we feel obligated to do this thing. Where we're not actually being asked to listen. Where it's sort of being demanded of us, and we can, and then we can get into that space of resentment. And this other idea of practicing things that we aren't good at, and getting better at it. And recognizing that when there's something that's not naturally comfortable for us to do, that doesn't mean we can't do it. That's a sign that it may be useful for us to spend some energy and spend some time getting better at that. And then to recognize you in the moment when it's like, "Nope! This is beyond where I'm at right now." But just because I can't do it right now doesn't mean I can't do it at another time, doesn't mean I can't get better at it, and I shouldn't get better at it. One of the things, for example, that I work a lot with managers and organizations about, is expanding their capacity to hear complaints. And so people want to complain about something. And I always hear a lot "People are always complaining! Why do I have to listen to this", you know, sort of thing? And it's like, "Well, one, there's probably useful information in that space, too". You actually need to understand that it's probably not about you. But it's like the more that you're able to listen to that, to develop the capacity to sit with that discomfort, the wider range of situations in which you're going to be able to work well. And so it's like, "Do I have to listen to this person complain?" "No." "Might it be useful for me?" "Hmm. Probably." "Do I choose to do that in this moment?" That's a whole separate thing. To your point, it is a set of skills. It's something you can learn how to do. And kind of by reflecting on what's hard for you about it, I think you can find a space to be able to work in practice.

Karen: 6:57

Yeah. And one of the things that that is that, in the same way that we don't all have the same listening abilities or capacities, the thing that makes me feel heard and listened to, is also very individual. And so on the one hand, we've got this whole range of listening capacities. On the listening side, both from person to person and from moment to moment or day to day. We also have a whole range of'what it is that will make me feel heard and satisfy my need to be heard and listened to'. Which of course, is why we listen to begin with, because people have that need. But for many people, the mirroring practice that I use is very effective for that. There is a subset that hate that. There are people who want to want it back paraphrased, or they just want you to engage and respond in some way. And I think that also varies,' what it is that will make me feel heard and honoured and validated and all the things that I might need'. And frankly, I might be needing something other than just to be heard that gets muddled in there. But that's going to vary. From person to person, and from day to day, and from moment to moment, and different circumstances, and all of that. And so one of the things that I think is really important to name, and just interesting to work with, is what happens when the capacity that someone has to listen, or the particular types of listening that someone has in their toolbox, or whatever, doesn't match the need that someone else has to be heard? Or to be heard in a way that works for them? Or the amount that they, you know, how long they need to talk before they can feel heard, or, you know, all of those things. And when there's a mismatch there, I think it's important to be able to look at both sides. Like, if you have a problem because there's a mismatch, you don't want to look at just one side or the other. You don't want to say "They won't listen to me" and you don't want to say "They just talk forever". You want to kind of try to recognize that the problem isn't with either one. The problem is the way they're coming together. It's the space between as we talk about.

Paul: 9:04

Absolutely. And I think that's useful to name that 'there is a problem'. That this isn't working without blaming the other person for it. To be able to say "It really seems like what you need right now is something that I can't do right now." And so that doesn't place it on you or on me. It's in that mismatch. And obviously a lot of the things that, you know, that I suggest in these spots rely on you actually having a good working relationship to begin with. I've probably told the story before, but there's at least one time where someone really needed to complain to me and I said, "You need a better version of me than I'm capable of being right now". And, and I mean, that kind of helped the person to realize,"Maybe I don't really need to say this right now. Maybe I really I'm just kind of venting to try to get this out and I can go yell in a paper bag or something like that." Like, it allowed that other person to recognize there may be another alternative strategy for getting this thing out. But it meant that we could come back together later on to have the conversation. But that's not something that I can do with someone who I have no working relationship with. Or, it's not as likely to work in those situations. So I think that being able to talk about how the problem is in the space between relies on there being some strength in that space between to begin with.

Karen: 10:32

Absolutely. And that gets only in groups, which it absolutely does show up. And it comes up in meeting planning a lot actually, that somebody wants time on the meeting to have their say. And they have this illusion. I think it's an illusion. That if they talk for 20 minutes, that the 20 other people in the room will listen to them for 20 minutes.

Paul: 10:55

Mm hmm.

Karen: 10:56

And so if we can get clearer that 20 other people all have the capacity to listen to a 20-minute emotional share. Nyeah. I'm going to guess that never happens. I think that's unlikely. There may be cases, where carefully structured and well facilitated, you can make that happen, but it's not the norm. It's not a thing I would just anticipate happening. So, just to point to the added complexity, when you're talking about groups. And to be able to think about where there's a need to be heard, does it have to be that everybody hears it? Does it have to be in the context of a meeting or what sort of gathering is the place where that might happen? Or would some one-on-one with someone who has more listening capacity for that sort of share be a better first step? I mean, there's just lots of ways to think about how to get there. But I just want to point out the complexity that comes when the space between, between lots of people.

Paul: 11:51

I was actually this is very Because I was helping a group that I'm part of, that I sort of chair this. This group that was meeting this week and someone said, "Well, I think that as a group we need to talk about X". And my brain immediately went,"I think you need to talk about X" and- but it did require me to, sort of, in that moment, take sort of the quick temperature of the room, and think. And realize, "Did the group need to talk about this?" No. "Did this person need to?" Yes."Okay. What's a reasonable outlet for that?" And so what we actually ended up doing was, was there was a space for conversation to happen after the meeting was over. And so I sort of used the authority that I had to be able to say, "It sounds like there's some important stuff that you want to dig into here. Would it be all right if we talked about this afterwards?" That way, people who- because other people had, somebody needed to leave, to go deal with a thing. And it looked like- and of course, this came up in the last 5 minutes of the meeting, as it always does.

Karen: 12:51

Of course.

Paul: 12:52

And so, so yeah, I think that is complicated in groups. And then you also have to recognize not only do I have the capacity to listen to this, but does everybody else in the room have the capacity to listen to this? And what's the, you know, what are the costs of not listening, versus the costs of listening? And we've got some varieties of options of how we might address that. But I think that is something that I want to point back to, is something that you've brought up a couple of times, and I've mentioned as well, is, the more ways that we know how to listen, and to express listening, the more likely it is that we are going to have one that in a particular situation will prove useful. If we only know how to do it in one way, or we can only do it under a limited set of circumstances, then it's more likely that we're going to get into a situation where what we can do is not useful. And so that's the other reason why I think expanding our capacity and our toolkit for listening is so useful, both in one-on-one, and group situations.

Karen: 13:59

So, to track where we've been, to listen to them', the first thing we want to say is let's get away from the "Do you have to" or "Are you willing to" and really live in the space of"Can you". And recognizing that, distinguishing between what you're willing to do, and what you're able to do, is probably not useful. But is it going to work for me to listen to this person? Based on the capacity that I have for the amount of listening, for the type of listening, for the content that it is, and recognizing that that will be variable from person to person, and from moment to moment. And that's all okay. So, just having an acceptance that our capacity to listen is limited in some ways, and it's okay to say that. And also that, if you're noticing that it's limited more than you'd like it to be, that it can be very useful to expand that capacity. That you have the ability to expand, and to train, and to practice. This is a muscle that can be built. And then that in the same way that listening capacities are highly varied, someone's need to be listened to, is highly variable. And so noticing that it's not the fault of either one when there's a mismatch, but it's really important to name it. What you're needing from me is not something I feel like I can do, or even the other way. What I'm needing from you. I'm thinking maybe you can't do. I'm checking. You could go either way. And then finally, the added complexity of groups where the space between is not between two people, but between 20. And the value, particularly, if you're in the facilitator's chair of being able to assess, you know, 'is the need that's being asked for a thing the group needs or the thing an individual needs'. And in either case, how do we work with that? Given that very often in groups, when someone has a high need to be heard, most of the time the group as a whole, does not have the capacity. Every other individual in the group does not have the capacity to listen to that kind of in depth at once. So, how do we pay attention to the need, while at the same time not forcing the group to sit by pretending to listen, when they're not? Really, it is kind of how that goes. So, just pointing to the the value of being able to have that authentic relationship, and say where you are, and say what you need, and honor where everybody is. And for everybody from all perspectives, to kind of stretch into being present for each other, while paying attention to what is the likely impact here, and what do I want to do with that to maximize the benefits.

Paul: 16:27

That's going to do it for us Tevis.

Karen: 16:31

And I'm Karen Gimnig. And this has been Employing Differences.