Employing Differences

Employing Differences, Episode 152: When is this "fine"?

April 11, 2023 Karen Gimnig & Paul Tevis
Employing Differences
Employing Differences, Episode 152: When is this "fine"?
Show Notes Transcript

"'Fine' is a code word for 'Actually, they're not how I want them to be and I don't feel like talking about it and getting into it right now.'"

Karen & Paul talk about bringing up things that aren't working for us.

Karen: [00:00:07] Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

Paul: [00:00:13] I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: [00:00:15] And I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul: [00:00:16] Each episode, we start with a question and we see where it takes us. This week's question is When is this fine?

Karen: [00:00:27] So we put that fine in quotation marks because so often people say, No, no, it's fine. And I think it's pretty well known in the culture now that fine doesn't actually mean that it's, you know, that we're okay. It doesn't suggest really, that I don't have any feelings about it, but it is a word that we throw around that way as an escape from conflict, perhaps, or for various reasons. And so what we want to explore today is when something's not working, someone has some discomfort about something or something's inconvenient for them or whatever, there's some level of problem and it doesn't even have to be huge.

Karen: [00:01:06] And when our case is where you sort of put up with that discomfort and when our case is that something should be done about that discomfort and that we should work through that. And Paul, as we were setting up the episode, you had a story of something that happened to you recently that I think kind of demonstrates what we're looking at really well. So I'll hand it to you.

Paul: [00:01:25] Yeah. So, I think we do tend to use fine as a shorthand for this is not okay, but I don't want to get into it because I think that's that's usually what it is. And so I think sometimes it requires really examining the dynamic around it. And part of this came from is somebody I was working with. We were trying to figure out how to do some scheduling of some stuff. And I got into a situation where I just kind of needed to declare calendar bankruptcy and said, "I need to reschedule some stuff that we're doing together, move some things around and declined a meeting invite." And I got a message a little while later saying the next day saying, "Hey, I didn't see you in the in the meeting today." And I was like, "Well, yes, that's because I declined it. I moved these things around." "Oh, well, I didn't really notice that, you know, in the future, if we could talk through some of this stuff, that that would be a better way of handling this."

Paul: [00:02:16] And I was like, "Absolutely. You know, and if we were both around when when that came up, then I think we should handle it that way."

Paul: [00:02:24] But what might we do when we're not both around like, say, it's Sunday morning when I come to this realization and I can't get you online to have a conversation about what we want to do. And the response was, "Well, I guess just do what you did. That seems fine." And my immediate thought was "It's not" like the problem is, is that like "You sitting waiting for me to show up into a meeting that I've declined and wasting your time is not I'm not okay with that outcome. So I'm going to decline your offer of fine, because I'm actually interested in working through this so that we can find something that actually works for both of us." So that's the that's the story of kind of where we started on this topic. And I think what it points to is that we do tend to use that fine as a way of saying, "I'm not happy with this and I don't feel like digging into it."

Karen: [00:03:12] And so I think the thing to start with is getting curious about why don't we feel like digging into it, right? We've got some kind of annoyance. That of some levels, something going on and why wouldn't we want it fixed? And I think, you know, sometimes it really is, "Yes, this is a problem. But the problem is I can handle the problem more than I can handle finding time and energy to solve it." And then, you know, it's probably better communication to say it would be nice to have a better solution, but I'm just not up for finding one right now. Right? Like to just be clear about that as opposed to that sort of coded fine is probably better.

Karen: [00:03:53] But ultimately, if that's the conclusion, that probably really is fine. When is this fine? That's an example. But I think most of the time we're in some other space. And one of the things is there's there's a politeness piece about this or an early learning of don't be needy, don't ask for things, your needs don't matter. You know, if you want to be really valuable in your organization, then, you know, don't be the squeaky wheel, Don't ask for things, go along to get along. There are lots of clichés to apply to this situation. And in those cases, I think very often it's not useful to do the it's fine and put up with it because you're not as efficient as you could be. And frankly, there's a fair chance that you're not the only one that's causing a problem for.

Paul: [00:04:43] Yeah, Yeah. One of the things that I tend to think about is how often is this sort of chronic or habitual? Like is this a one off thing where it just happened and it's not going to happen again because in which case, yeah, don't, don't bother. It's not really worth it. But I do think when we start to see things that sort of pop up over and over again, that every time they show up and that we find ourselves going, "I really don't have the energy to dig into this." "I really don't have the energy to dig into this like that." That's where the costs start to compound, because it isn't just that thing. You're now building up this pattern in your head about what this other person always does, and you're telling yourself a story.

Paul: [00:05:21] And the thing that I, as you said, like there are times when it's a perfectly legit decision to say, "I don't have the energy to dig into this right now, and maybe I don't even have the energy to dig into this in a little bit, like maybe not even later." I think we sometimes run into the asymmetry, like in the case I was talking about is when the other person does, because we sometimes make the assumption that if we're going to ask for something to be different, we have to do all of the work to make it different.

Paul: [00:05:49] And when we can get a sense of - actually the other person is also interested in changing this, that changes that equation a little bit where we start to recognize, "Oh, actually this is a problem for us, not just for me" when we can get some reassurance about that, I think that's one of the things that helps us to say, "Well, actually, maybe we don't have to tolerate this, maybe we don't have to continue to live with it."

Paul: [00:06:13] And so I think one of the things that can be useful to do is when you wish that something were different that you're tolerating, that is fine for you to start to get a sense of is the other person or the other people involved? Are they up for doing some collaboration around it, taking it on as a group problem to be solved, or is it something that you just have to take on? Because if you've come to the conclusion you're not willing to take it on by yourself, but you might be willing to if there are other people in there with you sometimes, then then it does make sense to bring up and dig into.

Karen: [00:06:45] Yeah, I think that's so true. And that part of what happens when we use that sort of fine exit door is that we don't find that out. And so it's one thing if I'm tolerating something because it just works better. If Paul and I are working on something together, and there's a way that he's working and he's rolling and flowing and it it's not great for me, but it's really working for him. Like, "Okay, like, I can put up with that and I can know". Like, "I'm choosing to put up with something that's inconvenient or annoying or whatever because it really is working for the project because it's really, really working for Paul." But if that's not, if I don't know that there's a fair chance that the thing that's not working for me is also not working for Paul. And neither of us is saying it because we're both just saying, "Oh, it's fine, it must be the way he wants it." And it's amazing how often by saying, "I don't know about that" or "Is there a way we could fix that?" That what comes up is, "Well, yeah, we could fix it because I want to fix it. I was doing it for you" you know, or whatever. That was like, you want it different too. This is awesome. And we just don't have any way to figure out how to weigh the different needs if we don't even know them.

Paul: [00:08:00] Otherwise it turns into like an Oh Henry story where we each out accommodate the other one. I think there's a, there's a strong element in there of.. I think for me, the key to when I decide to dig in or not around that is around whether or not I can actually accept it. We've talked before about this idea of willingness. And so in the, in "Hey, we're working together on something and I'll flip this around." "We're editing some document in a particular way where it's- I'm not engaging with it as much as I like to". Like, "It's not quite working for me, but it's totally working for you Karen and we're just getting 12 million things done." If I can actually accept that, "You know, this is going to be moderately inconvenient. It's not not how I would like to do it, but why is this going to get better results? It's not my preference, but I'm willing to do it."

Paul: [00:08:48] Then I think that is fine. But if on the other hand, if it's Karen always does this, she always has to have her way. If I start to notice at all that there's resentment building up or I'm noticing we're going to need to do this again. And if I have to do this every time, that's just going to drive me over the edge. Like if I'm noticing that if I'm not actually willing to do it that way, then I think that's when it is important to find those doors, those places, those safe spots where you can say, "Hey, are you open to talking about how this is working? Because it's not quite working for me the way I hoped it would."

Karen: [00:09:24] Absolutely. And I think it is this classic the space between as we talk about so often and it is what's happening in between that's so interesting because if the same thing is happening on both sides, you can you know, that can be very different. But in between there's this dynamic where feelings are happening and work is getting disrupted in whatever way, and relationships may be getting disrupted in every way.

Karen: [00:09:49] So when we pause to ask ourselves, "Is this actually fine" instead of that just knee jerk, "Oh, it's fine." And we just can say, "Is it fine?" And if it really is, then great and maybe even use a more explicit word than fine. But when it's not and I do want to say the reason we don't is because it's hard. You know, I want to say it takes courage to say, "Would you fix this for me?" Or, you know, "Could we engage with this?" Or the really vulnerable thing, which is, you know, where I imagine like your partner in your story, if he could have said to you if it were true. "Yeah, I'd really love it to be different than that, but I don't even know what to suggest." Like something, you know, that. That I don't even know what I need. I do know that what we did didn't work for me. And offer that opportunity for someone else to even solve my problem. It's vulnerable and it's scary. And it takes a ton of courage and it results in better relationships and better work.

Paul: [00:10:52] And again, to go back to that space between like, it feels obstructionist, right? This is that whole thing where we're told, "Well, don't bring me problems, bring me solutions." But it's like to point out a problem in the absence of having a solution or even knowing necessarily what a solution is like, but to trust that the partnership, the group, you know, whatever however it is you're working, can hear that and actually work with it and come up with something that they're open to that. I think that's one of the biggest things that it requires.

Paul: [00:11:25] In that particular case. We very often don't know what's what would work, but we know that the current situation is not. So if we're able to be in a space where we trust that we can bring the this isn't working, can we work it out together? Which kind of brings us back to what I was saying at the beginning. Like, "If we feel like it's not just our problem to solve on our own, but we feel like we can collaboratively solve it together, I think we're much more likely to bring it."

Karen: [00:11:52] And maybe the group doesn't come up with a solution. Maybe at the end of it, I still have my same problem, but you know, I'm a lot less likely to feel resentful about it if there's been an attempt to solve it. And we've gone, "You know what? This is just an unavoidable like this is just part of getting this done" Okay. Like, then I can live with it and feel at choice about it, or at least feel accepting of it and not get into that resentment place.

Paul: [00:12:18] Mm hmm. Because then it just becomes that there is a problem. And the problem is not actually in the space between. So to track sort of where we've been today, we're talking about this idea of things being, "Oh, fine" right. And fine is a code word for "Actually they're not how I want them to be and I don't feel like talking about it and getting into it right now."

Paul: [00:12:38] We've talked about and about how it would be really useful to say that instead, but we often don't. Talking about how, you know, we often end up in that spot because we're not sure that this is a spot where we can do that kind of problem solving and adjustment. We don't know that the other person is, or the other people are necessarily open to it. And it can feel like we have to do that all on our own. And how when we sort of steel that problem away from the group, when we don't point out that there is an issue, we aren't always able to discover that we're not the only ones that have it, that we really are keeping information from the group, so we're not able to handle it in a partnership or as a as a group, as a whole group.

Paul: [00:13:20] So we've talked about how it can be really valuable when we find ourselves in those spaces to ask ourselves like, what is it that we're really kind of wanting or needing in that spot? What about this isn't working as a way to start to figure out, "well, what might work? What might we do differently?"

Paul: [00:13:37] Particularly when we find that it isn't something that we really can just live with. Being able to sort of interrogate what's going on and going, "Look, is this something that I'm willing to do that I can accept, or is this something that's going to build resentment that's actually going to start to damage the relationship that's going to make it harder for us to work together more in the future?".

Paul: [00:13:57] If we're in the former case, then we probably can just live with it. And it isn't quite so corrosive. But if we're in the latter, then we do really want to bring it to the group because sometimes even if we can't solve the problem as a group, then it just becomes a problem in the situation rather than a problem with the other people who were in the situation with.

Karen: [00:14:17] And that's going to do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul: [00:14:21] And I'm Paul Tevis, and this has been Employing Differences.