Employing Differences, Episode 153: Do I need to be mad, too?

Paul: [00:00:07] Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

Karen: [00:00:13] I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul: [00:00:14] And I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: [00:00:16] Each episode, we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, "Do I need to be mad, too?"

Paul: [00:00:25] What we want to dig in here today to is a situation where, let's say you're working with another person. Or maybe you're married to this person, have some other relationship with this person. There is a space between that exists with the two of you. And one of you is upset about something, is mad, is angry, is fearful, has some strong emotional response to a thing.

Paul: [00:00:50] One of the things that we notice often is that when we have a strong relationship with another person, those anxieties, those fears, those upsetted-nesses can be contagious. And in fact, sometimes even when we don't have a strong relationship with other people, those things can be contagious.

Paul: [00:01:07] And that contagion of strong emotion isn't always the most helpful. And so what we want to dig in here today a little bit is to how we might, when we are working with someone else who has a situation that they're dealing with, that they have a strong emotional response to it, how we might best address that. How we can stay connected with that other person, but without necessarily catching whatever strong emotion it is that they have. And so if they're mad, we sometimes want to ask the question, wait a minute, "Do I need to be mad, too?"

Karen: [00:01:45] Yeah. And I think there's a lot in the culture that points to, you know, if I'm mad, then I expect everybody else to be mad with me. And the way that you support me is to be mad, too. And it also for a lot of people is, when somebody is mad or has strong feelings, the strategy they've learned for that is flee. To disconnect, maybe even to avoid that person, and just not be around it because that emotion doesn't feel safe or they don't know how to engage. Or, maybe especially if you disagree with them about whatever, you know, whatever the thing was. There can be a lot of reasons.

Karen: [00:02:23] But our sort of most common responses that we see to this situation is one person's upset and the other person either gets upset with them and really matches and their whole day gets thrown off. Or, you know, whatever happens to them with their emotion that happens almost as though it had happened to them. Or the opposite, where they just disconnect and go away.

Karen: [00:02:44] And so what we're looking for today is "how do we avoid both of those?" Because we think there are real costs. To both of those situations. For one thing, when you join in the emotion, you can actually amplify an emotion that that person would be better off working through to the end of, for example. Obviously, going away is disconnection. They can feel abandoned and it can do damage to the relationship. So we want to avoid those downsides. So how do we, as you said, stay connected, but not get caught in the negative aspects of that emotion? And I think the first step is awareness.

Karen: [00:03:21] Notice that it's happening. Notice just that self awareness to say, "Okay, I'm with someone and they're really upset. What's going on for me?" "What is my instinct? Where am I going? And is that the direction I want to go?"

Karen: [00:03:34] Which brings me to step two. In my mind, which is make a decision about what your role is in this situation. There certainly are times that I'm with someone who's upset. And my role is to help them solve their problem. Or my role is to, you know, go into some deep listening. And I put on my imago methods and I just listen and listen and listen and put some real time into helping them work through their problem. Those can be great responses if that's my role.

Karen: [00:04:04] I think we want to focus here on what do you do if those aren't your role? Your role is to be their co-worker today. Your role is to continue getting work done today. And if I have assessed that, "Nope, I don't want to try and solve their problem", which there are lots of really good reasons to not try and solve their problem. And "I don't want to be their best friend or their therapist". And in that, you know, processing kind of way, at least not at this moment. Then what do I do? "How do I", as we say. So how do we stay connected without diving into it? Either as problem solver or as "co-furious". But how can we navigate that then?

Paul: [00:04:52] I'm going to jump backwards slightly to that. The first thing you brought up, which is that idea of awareness. And so I think there's a need to have an awareness that it's happening. I think you also need to have an awareness of what is your tendency in those situations. Do you have a tendency to flee? Or do you have a tendency to fight? 

Paul: [00:05:10] You know, do you have a tendency to catch the thing? And stay connected and just be right there with them? In the middle of the sad, of the angry, of the- Do you have a tendency to take responsibility for other people's feelings? Or do you have a tendency to sort of shut it down and want to have nothing to do with it and to disconnect?

Paul: [00:05:27] Knowing what your tendencies are in those can help you spot when they're starting to show up. And similarly, knowing what your tendencies are with regards to the role that you cast yourself in. One of my mentors likes to say that "Groups and organizations will often elect us to play certain roles, but we usually run for office."

Paul: [00:05:49] We're doing something that has a tendency to put us into that problem solver space or to put us into that therapist space or to put us into that. There are things that we do. And so if we can start to recognize where do we tend to go, both in terms of getting angry with them or catching the emotion. Or running away, and in terms of what roles do we tend to play, we can then start to notice, "Well, what are the things that are telling us that those aren't the useful things to do in this situation?"

Paul: [00:06:16] What is it that, so that we can then start to go, "Well, what other options do we have?" I think that the reason why we're talking about this here today is "This is a thing that I struggle with! And I have a tendency to bounce back and forth between those two poles, feeling like I don't have any other choice", you know, between catching whatever the strong emotion is and disconnecting. But I think that's also because of my choice of tactics of what to do in those situations.

Paul: [00:06:41] One thing that I've started to do a lot more of is to recognize that I have the choice instead of shutting it down and trying to disconnect. And just say "We're going to move on from this", right. I can acknowledge that the person that I'm working with has this strong emotional response. Is upset, is angry, is frustrated, is maybe in a bit of a pit, right. But without jumping down into the pit with them.

Paul: [00:07:08] And so if I'm working with somebody on a volunteer project and they happen to have had a particularly bad day at work and they say "This is, you know, what I'm worked up about". You know, I might say, "Wow, that sounds really frustrating" in a way that is genuine and acknowledges the emotional state that they're in. But that doesn't mean that I also have to be frustrated on their behalf.

Karen: [00:07:32] Yeah. And I think that's a really good first step, is just letting them know that you've heard them. And I'd add another layer of that or another approach to that, which was what in the relationships world is called a validation. Which is, "You know, what you're saying makes sense." It sure makes sense that if this and that happened, that you've got these struggles or whatever. But sort of tracking the logic. And again, this is clearly not agreeing or disagreeing with them.

Karen: [00:07:59] And I think this is one of the things that I want to point out. Whether or not you choose to use the validation structure, avoiding the sense that you have to agree or disagree. Not my job to know if you're right. Not my job to know if- it's not my job to know where you are with it! What I know is that you're feeling what you're feeling. And I can be present with you in those feelings. And I can hear that you have a story about the thing. And I can validate and acknowledge your story about it pretty briefly. Pretty quickly. And then get clear about what my role is.

Karen: [00:08:36] And so if I know what my role is, I don't want to get involved in this. And to just say, "I feel like my role today is to get on with the work that we're doing or whatever it is, the thing that I'd like to do. How will it work best for you to do that?" Like, sort of redirect. To be clear about what I think my role is. And in some way make space for them to do what they need to do. Which could even include things like, "You know, it sounds like you could be, you know, more reactive today or edgier today or less focused. I'm happy to work with that! I get that. I'm okay."

Karen: [00:09:10] But if what they really need is to talk it out with someone, and I'm clear that that's not my role. It may even be, "You know, if you need to go work through this, I'll hold the fort." Or whatever the thing is, that's the way to do it.

Karen: [00:09:23] But that combination of "I'll touch with you for a minute. I'll see you. I'll know you. I'll hear you a little bit." And, "I'm clear about what my role is", and "I'm letting you know". That hopefully that maintains that sense of connection and allows them to take care of themselves if I'm not in the role of caretaker.

Paul: [00:09:43] Mm hmm. One of the things that points to for me is the idea that we also need to show up as people in those situations. You know, it's very easy for us to sort of be emotionally fused with the other person in those moments of strong emotion, right. And it's like they're angry, they're upset. You know, whatever it is. 

Paul: [00:10:05] If we don't bring in our own sense of what's happening for us. Like, one, we need to be able to bring it up for ourselves to be in touch with it. But two, to bring it into the conversation, to bring it into the moment, in a way that is present. That is real and is authentic, and it is not blaming or judge-y or things like that. But really being able to say, "I'm also part of this situation here."

Paul: [00:10:32] Now, in some ways, when we make it all about the other person, then it's not surprising that we get stuck in whatever either they want or the sort of the emotional field, you know, has control of. But if we can say, if we can acknowledge and connect with them, that this is what's going on with them. And then also disclose. Like, "This is what's happening for me. This is my sense of what we need to do".

Paul: [00:10:56] That we participate in that conversation as well and say- and as we've talked about on previous episodes of the show, right, it might be a case where you need to say, "Normally I would be a person who could listen to this whole thing and help you through this. And for whatever reason today, I'm not." That might be because I don't have the capacity, that might because of whatever else is going on.

Paul: [00:11:20] And if we can do that in a way that is clear, and is kind. And is sort of holding ourselves as full human beings, just as we are also holding the other person, that then actually creates more of a space between for us to actually work in again.

Karen: [00:11:45] Yeah, absolutely. And the caution that I would give around that is being fully present is not necessarily bringing my disagreement, disagreeable, idea into the space. Like, if we want to have the conversation, that's a different thing. But if someone's already upset, I'm going to guess that their capacity to hear a different viewpoint might not be there, right then.

Karen: [00:12:06] So yes, bring your person in, for sure. But be thoughtful about how much disagreement, or viewpoints. And part of "I don't agree with them enough to get mad with them" is also "I don't disagree with them enough to challenge them". Like, "I'm not in the space of deciding whether I agree or not".

Karen: [00:12:27] I know a place where this happened that probably most people had some experience with, was when the Supreme Court decision reversing the abortion-versus-Wade stuff came through. And a lot of people had really strong feelings about it. And a lot of people didn't. And of course, the strong feelings went in multiple directions, depending. And I'd known of, you know, some companies, you know, had a meeting where people could express all of their feelings about it. And other people within those companies thought that was ridiculous. And it's not company business that's, you know, had nothing to do with what the organization was doing. It was just, "Oh, this big horrible thing happened" kind of energy that somebody had, and called a meeting kind of thing.

Karen: [00:13:10] And I think that's a pretty good example of where some people had a thing that they wanted to talk about, that they wanted to process, that they wanted to get engaged with. And very reasonably, other people said, "This is work. I'm here to, you know, design software or sell things or whatever my job is, and I'm not feeling the need to work through all of this here."

Karen: [00:13:31] So I think that might be an example we can put some teeth into of being able to say, "Wow, I hear this issue is really important to you. It makes sense that it's really important to you and I can understand why this is a tough day for you." "Totally makes sense that you are thinking about that today when that is so important to you."

Karen: [00:13:50] And you can say that whether you agree with them, whether you disagree with them. Whether you want to talk about it, whether you don't. And, you know, and then you can follow up with, "You know, for me, where I am right now is I want to get focused on work" or whatever the thing is for me. But I think that that just is an example that comes to mind, that I think most people have some connection to.

Paul: [00:14:10] Yeah. And it points to one of the traps that we can fall into with this is diminishing what the other person is feeling. And that, that doesn't work either, right? Telling them that they're being unreasonable for saying the thing or, you know- because you can think that, right? You might go, "Wow, I have no idea why you are so worked up about this particular thing or why you feel the need to talk about this right now." You don't necessarily have to say that.

Paul: [00:14:38] And in fact, it's often not useful. Because as you point out, when people are upset, when people are having strong emotions, that's not the time to use your dry logic on them. And the fact that you're in a different emotional space, you know, doesn't mean that they should be. It goes back to that place of like, 'how can we acknowledge without judgement?'. 

Paul: [00:14:59] How can we validate that this person is feeling this thing and help them feel heard? Because that is often the thing that we really need about it. But also, I think this is a place of being clear about what your boundaries around this conversation and this topic in this place and time are going to be and how you are at choice about how you want to engage with this.

Paul: [00:15:25] And so if it's the case of we're in a meeting at work and you happen to have a strong opinion about this decision that's just come down from the Supreme Court, and it's clearly affecting you emotionally, I need to decide where- again, what my role is.

Paul: [00:15:43] But what my boundaries are about engaging with that, with you, right here, right now. And it may be I also have strong feelings that are kind of just below the surface. And I know that if I, you know, that I'm in danger of catching that emotional contagion. Of going there with you and being able to say, "I hear you, I understand that you are upset. I have a complex relationship with this topic as well. And I'm worried that if we dig into this any more here, I'm going to lose it. And I can't, I'm not willing to do that right now. Even in support of you." That's a place of really being able to show up as yourself.

Paul: [00:16:19] And then the two of you get to decide how you want to deal with that. But you get, you show up authentically, you bring what is true for you. And useful for the pair of you to the conversation, and then decide how you want to work with that together.

Karen: [00:16:34] Yeah, I think that kind of gets us through our content for today. So I'll sum up and just say that we're talking about "Do I need to be mad, too?" Or sad, or fearful, or whatever the emotion is that's coming up. 

Karen: [00:16:49] And the tendency that we have, that when someone has a really strong emotion that we're most likely to either join them in the emotion and get really angry as well, or whatever the emotion is. Or flee and just avoid, which causes the disconnection.

Karen: [00:17:03] And is there a space where we can stay connected but not get caught up in feeling that emotion with them. And that we think there are some steps to this. One is just awareness. Notice what's going on in me, that this is happening. And awareness of what is my instinct or my usual path. What is the thing I would usually be doing here? 

Karen: [00:17:24] And then be at choice about what is the role that is going to be useful; that's going to serve me, that's going to serve us, that's going to work for the situation. And if that role isn't to dig in more deeply with problem solving or caretaking in some way. That there are ways to be empathetic, to be supportive; to see them, to hear them, to validate and acknowledge what's going on for them. 

Karen: [00:17:48] And be clear about the role that I've decided I want to have. And I can then say to them, "I absolutely see and hear that you've had a big experience and it makes sense that it's a big deal to you. And my choice is I really want to stay focussed on the work. I don't think it's a good idea for me to get further engaged with you."

Karen: [00:18:07] And so showing up with my whole person for where I am in this situation, and the impact it's having on me. And setting the boundaries that are appropriate for me and that situation. And then working together with how those things merge so that you get to a thing that works for both, and is useful!

Paul: [00:18:26] Well, that's going to do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: [00:18:30] And I'm Karen Gimnig. And this has been Employing Differences.