Karen: [00:00:06] Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

Paul: [00:00:12] I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: [00:00:14] And I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul: [00:00:16] Each episode, we start with a question and we see where it takes us. This week's question is, "How do we share bad news?"

Karen: [00:00:24] So bad news is a thing that happens in groups. It can come from lots of places. It can come in a hierarchical organisation. It can be decisions that were handled above our pay grade, so to speak, and handed down. It can be world events. It can be things that happened within the project that we're all working on, any number of things that can be the source of it.

Karen: [00:00:47] But what we're really talking about here today is something happened that had a significant effect on the group that we're in, and we can't make that thing not happen. We can't undo that decision. We're in that spot. And we probably have some decisions to make about how to implement it, how to engage with it, what steps to take going forward.

Karen: [00:01:09] But if you're in the position because you are the manager, or the leader, or the person who happens to be the receiver of that information, wherever that was. What do you do to share that bad news with the group in a way that will turn out to work well for the group, given the situation that you're in, which includes the bad news?

Paul: [00:01:32] Yeah, I think that there's two things that I often struggle with; and I think a lot of people struggle with; when they need to share bad news with the group, that I think are important to work through when you're doing this.

Paul: [00:01:43] One is sort of "How does this impact me? How do I feel about this?" "What bothers me about this bad news?" "What's the emotional effect that it has on me? How do I relate to it?" Because if it's throwing me all kinds of off kilter, and I'm trying to present it to the group in a way that's going to be useful; that they can interact with it, they can make decisions about, that's not necessarily the best state to be in.

Paul: [00:02:09] And so I think an important first step before, you know, just obviously there are situations where you just rush into the room and shout the thing because there is no time to think or process. But when you've got a little bit of advance notice of 'the project has been cancelled', that 'we're moving on to this other thing', that- something has happened where you need to share that information.

Paul: [00:02:29] I think it's important to at least to take a moment and figure out 'how do I feel about this?' And is the feeling that I have, the mood that this is putting me into, is that useful for sharing with the group? If I'm frustrated or upset or angry, is that how I want to be when I'm sharing this information with the group?

Paul: [00:02:50] The answer might be yes, but, but make a conscious decision about that. If the answer is no, what mood do I want to be in when I'm presenting it, when I'm sharing it with the group? And how can I get there? How can I sort of step into that space. And how can I work with this myself so that I'm in the best possible space to share the information with the group? I think that's an important first step.

Karen: [00:03:16] I think so too. And I think one of the things to think about is 'Where am I relative to everybody else in the group', right? If I am just 'ticked' because that's my thing, helping the rest of the group be really furious with management probably isn't going to help us make good decisions, right? That may be my thing, but it may even be that the rest of the group isn't going to- like, I may be the one who's most angry. And I don't need that to be contagious.

Karen: [00:03:46] Then on the other hand, we might all be super sad, and I'm sad just like everybody else is super sad. Or maybe we are all really angry, and I'm angry like everybody else is angry. There can be a really useful space around saying, "Let's all feel this angry for a minute." You know, like we can all scream or we can all, you know, pass around the tissue box. Or like, have this moment where we feel the joint emotion together. 

Karen: [00:04:12] And then say, okay, we're angry or we're sad, we're whatever, and this is the world we're in. Where do we go from here? And so I think just being thoughtful about where is the group, and how you are, or are not, aligned with the group and, and how is that helpful? And it may be that the group is, you know, very sad and frustrated and sort of despairing, and you're feeling hopeful, you want to bring that different emotion in because it will help lead in a different direction.

Karen: [00:04:38] I would say false hope is not the thing I would do. It has to be legit, I think, and authentic. Just to be thoughtful about of the emotional stuff that I have, "What is useful to the group going forward?", while still being authentic? Because I can almost guarantee that anything authentic; put on, buried, stuffed, that kind of territory, will make everybody else more anxious and suspicious. So, but we can still kind of choose where within our authentic self we want to put our time and energy and expression to.

Paul: [00:05:15] Mmhmm. Exactly. And I think that it's important to recognise that any bit of bad news that lands in a group is going to land differently with each person there. We're almost, almost guaranteed not to all have the same reaction to it. 

Paul: [00:05:29] And recognize that the different reactions we have can become divisions within the group. So it's like, "If I know that I'm going to have a very different emotional reaction than the rest of the group is, I need to be aware of how that may put me in relationship to the rest of the group."

Paul: [00:05:46] Also recognizing that if I've learned this thing first- this shows up with managers a lot, right? Where they're given a piece of information, and then they need to communicate it to the rest of the group. I've had way more time to actually work through it than the rest of the group has had at the point where I present it to them. So of course I'm going to be further along my journey of working with it.

Paul: [00:06:05] So, I think that's an important thing about thinking about when you go to share the news, is recognizing that you're probably at a different spot in your processing than the group is about to be. And to not be impatient with wherever they are with that. And I think that's actually a space.

Paul: [00:06:22] The other thing that I notice, in me, and that I've noticed in a lot of folks that I work with about sharing bad news. The thing that makes people hesitant to do it is they worry what the other person, or other people's, reactions are going to be to it, and whether or not they can handle those reactions. 

Paul: [00:06:39] Like, I may have gone through, you know, "I've gotten the announcement that our division is being sold." And so "I know that this is happening and I don't like it" and "I'm frustrated, but I've kind of done my work and gotten to the point now of I don't like this, but I'm willing to do what I need to do in order to help this to be successful so that we can all still have jobs and this, that and the other thing". And, "Now I'm worried because I need to go tell my team and I'm worried that they're going to be angry and I'm not going to be able to handle that." "And that that's going to put me back into that space of anger or frustration" or things like that. And so I think that's the other piece of this, is like being able to understand what your reaction to other people's reactions may be.

Karen: [00:07:21] Yeah. And I love the way you distinguish between "I have trouble with dealing with their reaction" and "my ability to handle the reaction". And those are different things.

Karen: [00:07:33] So certainly if you're in a management type position or in a leadership type position, getting better at working with other people's emotions ss probably a skill set to work on. It's not, I don't think so much in the average MBA curriculum or whatever, but I, it's one of those. Like, it's part of the podcast curriculum.

Karen: [00:07:51] We really believe in this. And that a lot of what goes into that is being able to hear and validate those emotions without getting overrun by them. And without even necessarily agreeing with them! But being able to just sit with them and honor as valid whatever is coming up in the room.

Karen: [00:08:13] It helps if at the time that you're sharing it, there is some kind of space for that. I don't know that I would do that if I was sharing with a group of 100 people, but I certainly would if I was sharing with a group of six. So having some space to be able to talk through it and know your group and what they're likely to need.

Karen: [00:08:31] I think another thing that can really help with this is being thoughtful about what supports are there. If you have a facilitator that you're working with or a coach or somebody in that kind of role relative to the team, it's probably a good idea to tell them ahead of that meeting that there's going to be some stuff to facilitate. Like, they can be prepared, and also they have a chance to do their own work around whatever their emotional reaction to it is.

Karen: [00:08:56] So, just being thoughtful about "What do I need to handle those emotions well?" Are people going to have negative emotions around bad news? Yes. So, what skills or resources, or parts of my brain, do I need to be able to handle it? Because you're right, the emotions are going to be there. That's not going to change. But how we engage with them can be pretty different.

Paul: [00:09:21] And the thing that I see a lot when; and again, I've seen this mostly in organizations where managers kind of control the flow of information, there is the language that's used is, well, you know, "I want to protect the team. They don't need to know that." Or my favorite, which is, "Well, I don't think that they can handle that", which is almost always a clue to me that the person who's telling me that is the one who's having trouble handling it.

Paul: [00:09:46] And so recognizing that people are adults. That when we actually give people bad news, in as straightforward a way as we can, they then get to do their own processing around it. They get to figure out what's the best way for them to work through it, they just have to come to terms with it.

Paul: [00:10:06] When we get concerned about ultimately controlling other people's feelings, and taking responsibility for how they feel; and not sharing bad news or things like that, because we're concerned about their feelings, almost always, that's because we're actually concerned about our own feelings. Because we're concerned about our own reaction to their reaction.

Paul: [00:10:27] As you point out, I think that's the space where we actually have things that we can do. I can't control what someone else's emotional response to this thing is going to be. And I shouldn't I shouldn't even try.

Paul: [00:10:38] But what I can do is prepare myself to be with that. And going back to a couple of episodes ago where we talked about, you know, oftentimes when we feel like we're getting overwhelmed, that we may get overwhelmed by emotional response, we may disconnect. We may try to sort of cut ourselves off from that.

Paul: [00:10:57] The more we can build our stamina for being with strong emotions in the face of bad news, the more we're actually able to share information. And the more capable people become of hearing it! The more people actually work through the "Oh, okay, we got some bad news. We need to go through the response cycle to integrate it into, process it, to work with it." Then that becomes a muscle that they can develop, too. 

Paul: [00:11:23] And that as a group, we can just get better at dealing with bad news. Because as we kind of started this whole show talking about, there are things that will happen that we don't have control over. That we don't like.

Paul: [00:11:35] And so the more that we can actually develop the ability to work with those, and then make decisions as a result of those things that are within our scope, the more effective we're going to be functioning as a group.

Karen: [00:11:48] Yeah. And you're alluding to a thing that I think is a really important to look at, which is "How much information do we share?"

Karen: [00:11:56] And often, there is an instinct to say, you know, "keep it quiet until we know everything" or "just tell the minimum" and this sort of withholding of information. And certainly there are times for that. I mean, you don't want partial information to cause panic, you know, ahead of- you know, if you're going to do a layoff, I'm not suggesting that at the first moment that you know that there might be a layoff coming. You tell everybody that, "Yeah, we think there's probably a layoff coming, but we don't know who or how many or what." Like, that would just cause panic across and we wouldn't do that.

Karen: [00:12:27] But once we have the bad news, there's a real benefit to sharing what we know. I was working with actually with my teen child on some changes we were making in the household. And I remember saying to him, "Okay, we're making changes. We've got, we're doing these things today, and there will be more coming."

Karen: [00:12:47] And I thought I was preparing him. Giving it to him in pieces he could handle, and preparing him for what was to come for him.

Karen: [00:12:54] It just struck terror. "I don't know how bad it's going to get." I don't know. Like, and so that my effort to be protective was actually damaging.

Karen: [00:13:05] So what I think is a good approach is unless there's a really compelling reason not to share it. What I really like to be able to say is "This is what we know. These are the things that we know. These are the things that we're sure of. This is what we know."

Karen: [00:13:19] "These are the things that we don't know. We might like to, but there's this information that we don't have yet. If I know when we might get it, or how we might get it, I'll share that." "And I can share the frustration of we really wish we knew those things and we don't." "But to be absolutely transparent about that, it's not that we're withholding. It's that we simply don't know."

Karen: [00:13:39] And then what choices do we have? And it may be that we don't really have any choices right now. We need to wait for a few other things to fall into place. Or it may be that we have limited options and we can talk about them.

Karen: [00:13:50] But to get those three pieces, as fully and authentically as possible, creates trust. And that trust, if you feel like you can trust the messenger, then you can really process what is happening, instead of processing the what-ifs because you don't know.

Paul: [00:14:08] The other thing that it does, and I do a very similar thing. I try to lay out exactly those three things. The other thing that it does is it helps to re-establish our sense of agency. Because, again, bad news is often about things happening to us where we don't have control, we don't have autonomy, we don't have agency, and we're really feeling that.

Paul: [00:14:27] And by sharing it in a way that reframes, "Okay, this is what we do know. This is what we don't know. And these are options that we have or things that we can do to start to lay out sort of a plan forward." You know, things that are within our scope to figure out what we can do.

Paul: [00:14:43] That. That shifts the narrative a little bit from, from us being victims. From us having these things happen to us to re-establishing "What is it that we actually can do?", even if we don't, even if we don't like the situation we find ourselves in. 

Paul: [00:14:59] The metaphor I often use is, "Look, we don't control the weather, but we get to decide do we want to go out for a walk? If we do, do we want a jacket? Do we want to take an umbrella?" Like, how do we want to deal with what's going on here? And recognizing that we do have choices. And starting to name some of those, diffuses some of that anxiety around the feeling that things are just happening to us.

Karen: [00:15:22] Absolutely. So just to summarize where we've been today, we wanted to tackle the idea of when do we share bad news. Things that we wish weren't true, but that no one in our group has any say over "this is how it's going to be". 

Karen: [00:15:37] And where one, or a couple of members of a group, got that information first and now have the job to share it with everybody else. How does that work?

Karen: [00:15:45] And we think that there are a few things that really need to be tracked. And what is if I'm the person sharing the information, what's my relationship to the topic? What's my emotional reaction to it?

Karen: [00:15:55] What do I need to do to be ready to share the part of my emotional reaction that's useful to the group? To work through the part of my emotional reaction that's not useful to the group. So that I can show up authentically and sharing where I am as a whole real person, but in a way that's actually productive and doesn't spawn additional fears and anxieties in others.

Karen: [00:16:18] And then the second thing is that we tend to worry about what will the reaction be, and "Is that a reaction I can handle?" And we're really pointing to the second part of that. Yes, there will be reactions. Yes, there will be emotions in the room. So build your capacity to handle those. To empathize, to validate, to be present with. 

Karen: [00:16:38] And potentially bring in support folks. If you have facilitators, coaches, other folks who would normally be there or could be added, that might help with that processing. That might be a way to increase your capacity. That those folks know what's coming, if there are people who is appropriate to tell in advance.

Karen: [00:16:56] And then as you're sharing the information, be really clear and as transparent as you reasonably can be with "This is what we know. This is what we don't know. These are the choices we have." So that we kind of reduce the "well, what if" anxiety. We increase the trust. We have a sense that we as a team are all in the same boat together. We don't have somebody who's withholding information. 

Karen: [00:17:18] And we have that increase in autonomy when we didn't feel like we had much. When the bad news really took away our sense of control and agency. Because there are things we don't have control over. That we can start to rebuild that sense by the open sharing, and then eventually the problem solving that comes around it.

Paul: [00:17:36] Well, that's going to do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: [00:17:40] And I'm Karen Gimnig. And this has been Employing Differences.