Karen: [00:00:06] Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

Paul: [00:00:13] I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: [00:00:14] And I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul: [00:00:16] Each episode, we start with a question and we see where it takes us. This week's question is, Who do I talk to?

Karen: [00:00:24] So the context for this question is some element of conflict. So, I'm unhappy with someone else and we're both part of a group. Whether that's an organization, a non-profit, a company you all work for, we're in a group or a team environment and I'm unhappy with somebody else.

Karen: [00:00:44] And the question is, "Who do I talk to about that?" And what I see in my work is that often, the very last person we want to talk to, is the person that I'm unhappy with. Because conflict work is hard, and vulnerable, and I'm already unhappy with them. And I'm, maybe I'm unhappy enough that I, you know, will blurt out some very judgmental, ugly thing. And I don't want to be judgmental and ugly and I don't want to make it bigger than it is. Or maybe I'm so mad at them that I'm sure they're just going to make it worse if I talk to them. So, why do I want to talk to them?

Karen: [00:01:17] And so instead, I talked to everyone but 'them'. Because everyone else is safe to talk to. And they're my friends and we're around. And you won't be surprised if you've been listening to this show, that we're going to recommend that this is not the ideal strategy.

Karen: [00:01:33] But the question that we want to play with today is "what is the ideal strategy?" Who should we be talking to when we're upset with someone else within a group that we're a part of?

Paul: [00:01:46] One of the the trick questions that my business partner, Jake Calabrese, likes to, to spring on people, when they bring up "Why have this problem with this person?" He always says, well, when you've talked with them about it, what did they say? And that kind of points, you know, in the direction that we want to go. Which is absolutely we do want to get to the point where we can actually talk to that other person about this issue.

Paul: [00:02:07] And as you rightly point out, there may be a lot of reasons why we feel we're not ready to do that. Why we can't do that right now. One of the things that I think a lot about in, when I'm looking at organizations, when working with teams, and working with in assessing any partnership. 

Paul: [00:02:22] One of the things that I look at is do we talk about each other more than we talk to each other? And if so, that's probably a sign that we're avoiding the conversations we really need to have. And as we've talked about here before, I think it is important to recognise that sometimes we need to do some clearing. We need to do some figuring and getting our heads on straight so that we can talk to the person that we need to.

Paul: [00:02:47] So I think there's a useful- for me, the useful guide is if Karen and I are working as part of something and there's an issue that's between Karen and I, you know, "I'm upset with Karen because I believe she's made a bad decision about a thing and not involved me or whatever it is". And Karen is probably thinking very similar things about me. I want to get to the point where Karen and I can actually talk about it and work through it.

Paul: [00:03:11] And if I'm hesitating to do that, I need to unpack 'what is my hesitation to do that?' What am I afraid may happen? How am I afraid that I might make things worse? Like, what do I think the downside of going to talk to Karen about this might be? And then how can I work through that. 

Paul: [00:03:30] For me, that's kind of the first step is recognizing my hesitation is a sign that can point me towards the work that needs to happen in order to be able to have the conversation.

Karen: [00:03:42] Yeah, I think that's always a great place to start. Is that curiosity about 'what's going on with me?' And the more that I'm feeling like I, you know, I sort of cringe when I see that person or maybe I don't walk by their office or maybe whatever, like if I'm doing that avoidant thing. That's an even stronger sign. I better do something about it, because we often tell ourselves that "I'm just avoiding it so it's not bothering anybody but me".

Karen: [00:04:11] And of course, that's just not something that stays secret. Even if they have no idea that you're upset with them, they're going to get some kind of vibe that something's wrong. And who knows what stories they'll make up about why you must be mad at them! 

Karen: [00:04:23] Or for that matter, that they get upset with you because you're now treating them badly by the avoidance thing. Which of course is the last thing you're trying to do. So, yeah, I think that curiosity about what's going on inside is really big. And then being thoughtful about what will move forward toward the direction that you want.

Karen: [00:04:44] And this is one of the things that comes up a lot on the show, which is "what is your objective?" What is the thing that you would like? And, you know, there are times when people you know, I'm just so mad. I want, I want them to leave. I want them to not be here anymore. And, you know, and if you're really there, that's a whole different process. But I think we're, where we would like to work is in the space of we want to continue to have a functional relationship with this person. Whether they're, you know, our neighbors or our co-worker or whatever. It doesn't mean they're going to be our best friend that we always share our deepest, darkest secrets with. But that some amount of relationship really is the goal.

Karen: [00:05:23] And we're not just looking for a way out of this particular conflict. We're looking for the strengthening of relationship. A cleaning up of relationship. So that we have this good working relationship with each other, whatever that relationship is with that person. Whatever the goal is.

Paul: [00:05:41] Yeah, I think that's really useful to think about. Like, not only just sort of what is my short term kind of tactical goal of like, "I would really like to get this particular issue resolved." "I really would like to move forward with however we're going to deal with the expense process." "I would really like to get this thing done."

Paul: [00:05:59] But as you point to, there's a larger thing behind that, which is "I would like to be able to continue to work with this person in the future in a way that is less unpleasant than it is now." And keeping both of those in mind, I think, is really useful.

Paul: [00:06:12] One of the things that I have started to do when I noticed that kind of thing, is not to try to solve that issue dead on. Particularly the tactical thing, right? Not to go after that first. It's very easy to say, "Well, let's actually just address the issue and get that done" and then move on. But that doesn't actually address the future working together piece.

Paul: [00:06:34] And in fact, what I find is sometimes more useful to do is to figure out what are the bits of relationship repair that I can do so that we could resolve the current issue at hand, rather than looking at- like, you need to do both. Because in some ways the, demonstrating that you can work through the issue at hand, helps to repair the relationship. It helps demonstrate that.

Paul: [00:06:55] But if the current state of the relationship is such that you can't work through the issue, you need to do some relationship work first. And one of the things that I'll just sometimes do with that, is name that there is an issue. And let the other person know, "Hey, so you're aware. I'm telling myself a story right now about what's happening between us. I'm not trying to resolve this right now. I want to let you in on my secret." It's kind of what I'm saying. Like, putting it out there on the table. 

Paul: [00:07:27] Because sometimes they have no idea. Sometimes they suspect something is up. Sometimes they're telling themselves a story that's way worse than what's actually going on. But just putting it out there on the table, without any pressure to resolve it. 

Paul: [00:07:42] To just kind of let that be known so that both of you can see "This is what I'm experiencing right now", can be useful. Sometimes they'll then say, "Yeah, here's what I'm experiencing. Here's what's going on with me right now. Here's why I'm really annoyed with you."

Paul: [00:07:57] And sometimes it'll just be like, "I had no idea." And sometimes it's like, "Thanks, I need to think about this for a while", but just kind of moving. Like, often we feel there's a pressure to resolve things. And sometimes the most useful thing we can do is just to reveal them.

Karen: [00:08:13] I like that a lot. And I think one of the things I want to think about today is "how do you know?" Can you reveal it without diving into the deep end? And possibly getting into territory that you're not prepared for? 

Karen: [00:08:30] And I think a lot of that sort of instinct and discernment. Like, how much relationship is there with that person? You know, if this is you've been working with them for less than a week and this thing came up, you don't have a lot of foundation to work from. If you've been living next door to them for the past 20 years, yeah, you probably have a pretty strong sense of where that is.

Karen: [00:08:53] And so some of this is discernment about "what foundation do I have", "where can I go with this?" And I think this is a place where it can be useful when else, possibly even someone else on the team.

Karen: [00:09:08] The danger there, of course, is that you drift into gossip. So when I'm thinking about do I talk to somebody else? I really want to ask myself, "Do I want to talk to somebody else because I want somebody else on my side?" "Am I looking for somebody who's going to say, 'Yup, yup. And here are all the reasons. Yeah, that person drives me crazy too. And you're so right.'" That's probably not going to help any of the relationship. Not even the one with the friend that I'm talking to who's agreeing with me. Even that is probably not great for the relationship there.

Karen: [00:09:40] But if I'm going to someone and saying "I'm trying to check myself. Am I on track? Here is what I'm seeing reasonable." "What might I be missing about the story I'm telling myself?" What do you know about this person and how I might, how do I approach them? You know, is it better to talk to them in the morning or the afternoon? Do they need time to think about it? Do they just want to dive in? Do you know anything about that?

Karen: [00:10:02] If it's more in that sort of problem solving, checking myself, or even "I'm really upset about this, I just need a sounding board." Like, that can be a thing. But if what you're looking for is validation of how right you are and how wrong they are, you can do that. But I would do it outside the group. If that's the thing you need to do. I would not go to somebody else who's part of the system and knows that person. Because you very quickly land in gossip and side taking.

Karen: [00:10:30] And really what tends to happen is the problem just got bigger and broader and pulled more people into it, and is worse. So just really thinking about what is it that makes me want to talk about this situation with someone other than the person who's in it with me, or that I'm upset with? And what will that be useful about, and where will it not be useful?

Paul: [00:10:52] And I go back to that my sort of guideline around 'am I talking to the person more than I'm talking about them'. If I'm going to talk to somebody else, right. "Karen and I have an issue and I'm going to go talk to Jake", right. Because I want to get some perspective from Jake. I want or maybe I just need to vent. I needed someone to listen to me. Like, whatever it is. I'm going to do that if it then helps me to have the conversation with Karen.

Paul: [00:11:15] If I'm using that as a way to avoid having the conversation with Karen. If it becomes an excuse for me to then not need to talk to Karen, then that's actually probably not moving things forward. That it's yeah, I'm venting it and I'm getting it out. Maybe I'm processing it, but that's a temporary solution that doesn't actually help the problem.

Paul: [00:11:37] If though, I go and I talk to Jake, and I go, "Karen is doing this thing that's driving me nuts", right? And then Jake rather smartly says like, "Well, don't you do things like that too?" And I go, "Oh, dang it, I do too, right?" And I get to see my part in it and I go, "Okay, great. I need to talk to Karen about this."

Paul: [00:11:54] How do I frame this? Like, what do I, if I can use that to get me to the point where I now know what I need to say to you. Or what I want to say to you. If I can get clearer about what my goal for the conversation is going to be. If I can get clearer about how I need to show up for that conversation, then, then having that side conversation to prepare is useful.

Paul: [00:12:17] Otherwise, as you point. Yeah, it often turns into gossip. And particularly if we're gossiping with somebody in the system, it just gets worse.

Paul: [00:12:25] And I think that the thing that is most useful to me in those preparatory conversations, or in the preparatory work that I'm doing. If I come and have a conversation with you, I can't predict, with certainty, how you're going to respond to whatever it is that I say. Like, if I need to just reveal to you, "Hey, this is what's going on with me, I'm upset about this. We don't need to solve this right now", right? I don't know whether or not you're going to want to go into problem solving right away. I don't necessarily even know if I'm suddenly going to break down in the middle of it and need to go and do whatever have you.

Paul: [00:12:56] But like, I need to do the preparation work so that regardless of how you 'you' react to it, I can respond usefully. I can't control what your reaction is going to be, and I can't necessarily predict it. But what I can be in control of is how I'm going to respond to whatever comes up.

Paul: [00:13:18] And so if I'm able to do that work, either by myself with some journaling, maybe talking to a coach, maybe talking to a friend or a sounding board. Like, if I can do that work, then I can come to the conversation that we need to have in a much more useful space. Even though I can't predict what's going to happen.

Karen: [00:13:37] Yeah, I think that's so true. And so learning about ourselves. Like, what does it take for me to be ready? And then ready is about "Can I say it in a useful way?" "Can I own my part of it?" "Can I say it without the judgement?" And in a more vulnerable way. And acknowledging that there is a problem. And even acknowledging that I'm unhappy, I may even be angry or resentful. Being able to say those things.

Karen: [00:14:03] And it's amazing. We think this isn't possible, but it really is. That I can say to Paul, "I am really angry about this". And not have it be a put down and not have it be judgmental. "I am feeling really angry and resentful about this thing that you did. And I'm going to be curious about why you did it." And it doesn't mean, like, it doesn't mean that it's a horrible thing that you did or that you're a horrible person. It just means right now I'm feeling angry and resentful. 

Karen: [00:14:27] And if we can get comfortable with that approach, then we'll be able to talk to the person that we can actually make progress with.

Paul: [00:14:38] Yeah, and there's a lot of different things that we might need to express in that. I think that one of the key things, particularly when we're trying to- again, rebuild the relationship to the point where we can work through whatever the issue is at hand, is expressing that desire to do exactly that. That if I'm coming to you and saying I'm really, "I'm upset about this thing that you did and I'm committed to working through this." Like, "I don't want this to continue to sit between us. It's not going to be easy. And I'm committed to actually talking with you about it and figuring out how we can make progress on this."

Paul: [00:15:15] I think that is often the thing that doesn't get said in those conversations. Is expressing a continued desire to work together, and to actually repair it. And obviously you've got to find the words that work for you, and the words that work for the other person. As you said, like you were talking earlier, Karen, about like, what you choose to reveal and how you choose to say things, and things like that, really varies on what is the depth of your working relationship with this person.

Paul: [00:15:41] I feel like you can kind of have these conversations, even if you've just met this person, if you've just started working with them. As long as you are mindful of how this stuff may land. You know, you have worked with them a little bit before, you know a little bit about them. Even if you've only been working together for a week or a few days or something like that. You've at least heard the words that they've used. You have an instant impression of sort of anybody you work with.

Paul: [00:16:05] And so how can you, in a way that they can hear express that, "Hey, this is an issue." Like, but also maybe, you saying, "But I don't think it's a big deal. We've just started working together and I just want to figure out how we how we work better together in the future."

Paul: [00:16:21] I don't have to have a deep, intimate relationship with somebody in order to say that. And so I do think finding these ways to express that you want to resolve the issue, that you want to continue to work with the person effectively in the future. Even if you're not going to be best friends, right? It's just like, "Look, we're stuck with each other. How do we figure out how to make each other as least miserable as possible?" Like, depending on who you're talking to, that may be what you need to say! 

Karen: [00:16:45] Yeah. And I think that leads into the other fear about having these conversations, which is, you know, I'm trying to have a working relationship with them and want to clear the air and work through the thing. What if they don't? You know, what if they just refuse?

Karen: [00:17:00] And really, my answer is I don't get to control that. I can figure out how I want to work with that. And depending on what the circumstances are, whether that changes. How I want to be invested in that role or that relationship, I think it's relatively unusual. 

Karen: [00:17:18] But it can happen that people just say, "I'm done, I'm not interested." And then I think it is an appropriate time to potentially get some help from somebody else to figure out, "Okay, so how do I work through my end of this?" How do I still work through- you know, the things that I would have worked through with them, I probably still need to work through. 

Karen: [00:17:38] Because even though I won't change their behavior, it likely will change who I am and how I feel and how much resentment I carry. You know, like if I can work through where I am with that. And then it can really be helpful to get help from somebody else. But again, think about whether you want to do that inside the group or outside.

Karen: [00:17:54] Sometimes the perspective of somebody who knows some things is helpful, but not if the goal is to get people on my side turned against them. Even if they're not helping with the relationship. Lining up people on my side will not serve the team, will not serve my other relationships.

Karen: [00:18:09] We really want to be in that authentic support kind of space, even towards the people that aren't returning it, if those are there.

Karen: [00:18:18] And so just thinking about where is that distinguishing point. Of "Am I speaking in a way that's useful and helpful toward resolving the conflict" either between the two of us, or even if it's just within myself, the work I can do? Or am I having the conversation about that's just sort of gossip and the lining-up sides and getting affirmation from my viewpoint. I don't know about you, but when I'm really mad at somebody, I don't need help knowing I'm mad at them. I'm really good at knowing why I'm mad at them and how right I am about that. So I want to be looking for help with the thing I'm less good at, which is seeing their side of it. Regulating, getting settled and being productive when I'm mad.

Paul: [00:18:59] Well, I think that's going to do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: [00:19:04] And I'm Karen Gimnig. And this has been Employing Differences.