Paul: [00:00:06] Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

Karen: [00:00:12] I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul: [00:00:14] And I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: [00:00:16] Each episode, we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, Is this problem mine?

Paul: [00:00:24] What we want to explore today is a situation that is very common in groups. This is one of those cases where we want to expand slightly beyond the one on one. But the thing that shows up when we've got at least three people involved in a situation here, which is where there's a problem, there's a thing that's happening in the group. It could be an argument, it could be something not getting done. It could be something that's happening in that space in the group that's impacting you in a particular way.

Paul: [00:00:57] And it can be unclear what you need to do about this. So this could be to other people in the group are fighting and it's having an impact on you. It could be the case of some piece of shared equipment is broken. The coffee maker doesn't work. And I'm one of the big coffee drinkers. What do we do about this?

Paul: [00:01:17] Because it's very easy for us to fall into assuming that because we are part of a group. And there is a problem that exists in the group, therefore the problem is mine. The problem is mine in some way. It belongs to me and I can feel really, really stuck in some of those situations.

Karen: [00:01:36] And I think we want to particularly explore a case like an argument between two other people, or that piece of office equipment. It clearly is someone's purview to maintain and get it fixed and that person isn't me.

Karen: [00:01:49] Like, so 'Is this problem mine?' when I don't think it's in my job description to fix it, whether that's an actual paid job or a volunteer in an organization, whatever your role is, it doesn't it's not within my realm to fix the problem. But 'Boy, is it a problem for me that it hasn't been fixed!' That the argument hasn't been worked out, that the machine doesn't work, that whatever.

Karen: [00:02:17] And I think there are sort of two extremes we'd like to avoid here. One of them that Paul, I think was sort of alluding to is the "Well, if it's a problem for me, then I'm going to solve it." And that leads to stepping on toes, and doing work that isn't yours to do, and meddling in other people's relationships in ways that turns out not to be useful. So we don't want to go that direction.

Karen: [00:02:39] And the other direction that can be just as toxic, although more quietly so usually, is "It's not my problem. It's somebody else's job to fix this." "They're supposed to work out their argument." "That person is supposed to fix the coffee maker or whatever it is." And, "I'm just going to sit over here being helpless and resentful because they ought to be responsible. They ought to do their job." "They ought to put their big girl panties on and sort out their argument."

Karen: [00:03:10] You notice how a lot of very pejorative sort of tone and language came in when I got there? It is so easy to go there and land in that judgement place, which also does nothing to solve the problem.

Paul: [00:03:22] And I think one of the reasons we tend to land in that in one of those two extremes, for me it tends to be the "I'm just going to sit here and suffer and be resentful" place more often than not.

Paul: [00:03:33] But I think one of the reasons we land in those is because we don't know what our other options are like. It seems like, "Well, either I have to fix it or I have to live with it." That it can feel like those are the only two choices we have.

Paul: [00:03:47] And what Karen and I want to kind of point to today is that there are other choices. There are ways of working more skilfully in that space, and we want to explore that here today. But I do think that what Karen has really talked about is an important piece is pulling apart the two bits of this.

Paul: [00:04:05] The problem might not be mine to fix. It might not be in my purview. It might not be in my job description. And also it is affecting me. So it's mine. But it's not mine. It's not mine, but it's mine. It's both. I think where we get caught is thinking that there's a simple answer to that question.

Paul: [00:04:25] So that's the first thing that I want to kind of point at, is that like, when we can recognize that we're in this situation, it can sort of point out that we might fall into one of these two traps. Of the trap of bowling through everybody to try and fix it when we're actually not the right person to fix it or sitting, and being helpless and resentful.

Karen: [00:04:45] And I think the reason that we don't think there's another solution is because the other solution tends to be uncomfortable. Like so much of what Paul and I suggest that we could all do to make the world better and our relationships better.

Karen: [00:04:59] And it's the vulnerable thing of naming my own need. It's so much more comfortable in our culture to say you are doing the wrong thing and you are not behaving and you are supposed to be fixing this. That sort of blame judgement, direction that feels powerful and righteous. But the "This thing is hurting me. This thing is causing a problem for me." "This thing is impacting me" and "making me uncomfortable or unproductive" or, you know, whatever the real thing is. 

Karen: [00:05:34] Which means do a little soul searching and figure out like, 'what is the thing that's actually my need in this'? And then naming to the person whose problem it is, or people whose problem it is, that the problem is a problem for me.

Karen: [00:05:51] And at the same time, probably saying to them, "And I believe you can solve it! This is not me trying to take over. It's not me trying to be the boss of you. It's me letting you know this matters to me. And really what I'm hoping for there is that my need will increase their priority on the thing that I need." 

Karen: [00:06:15] Either to get it ahead of the other thing so it doesn't fall to the bottom of the to do list again. Or to get it enough of a priority that they're willing to overcome their discomfort and deal with their argument, or whatever the thing is. But it starts with that vulnerable thing about naming a need.

Paul: [00:06:33] And particularly when we talk about, again, the idea of the space between, it is so tempting and not at all vulnerable to say you should follow the rules. But that's not something that's between us, right? Whenever we go to that external, like, "You ought to...", there are rules. "We have a policy...", like, that kind of thing. It's not actually engaging the relational space between us. 

Paul: [00:06:57] And as a result, it's very often less powerful, less effective. And what you're really pointing at here is to be able to say to the two people, who are having this disagreement, that's impacting me in some way. For me to be able to say, "Look, I know this thing is really between the two of you to work out, to sort through, to figure out. I trust that you're capable of doing that. And also I need you to do that because this is the impact that it's having on me." 

Paul: [00:07:26] And that? That is so alien to us in a lot of ways. Because what I'm saying in that situation is 'I am utterly dependent on you'. Like, "I'm having to be vulnerable, not just to say that this is a need that I have. But what I'm also saying is, "And I'm not capable of dealing with that myself and I trust that you are." Like, that is a deeply vulnerable space.

Paul: [00:07:53] And it also really leverages that space between. That it really digs into the relationships at play there, in a way that sort of an appeal to righteousness and morality and law and policy. Like, doesn't.

Karen: [00:08:11] Yeah. And I'd go even one step deeper, which is "It may even be that I could fix it. I can order a coffee maker or buy coffee on my way to work." Or like, "Maybe. Maybe it's a thing that I even could fix. But I'm going to choose not to because I'm going to be vulnerable to our relationship to you."

Karen: [00:08:33] "I am going to choose not to take control and leave the control of this thing that matters to me in your hands." There's the vulnerability. So need is one level and then even a deeper level of saying, 'I'm going to trust and count on you'.

Paul: [00:08:52] And the reason why I think that this is worth it so often is that it does lead to a much stronger relationship. Because now we're actually working through real difficulties rather than plastering things over, or sweeping them under the rug, or pretending like it's not a problem. 

Paul: [00:09:10] Like, the fact that there's been a breakdown in our normal ways of working and our ways of collaborating. It's gotten to the point of the coffeemaker doesn't work and the people are supposed to be fixing it, aren't handling it. Like rather than me going, "I'm just going to patch this solution by going and buying a coffee maker." I'm actually digging into, "Hey, how do we want to work together when the ways that we've said we want to work together are breaking down? When we're not doing those things?"

Paul: [00:09:36] Because building that repair muscle, finding the ways back through, through the difficulty, into things are working well for everybody. Again, that makes the working relationship so much stronger. Because now we've been through one of those things and we've fixed it! And we've figured out how to restore and to get back into where we needed to be.

Paul: [00:09:58] And so that's for me, the big reason not to sort of pull the rip cord on this and say, "Ah, I'm just going to, you know, fix this myself or live with it" or whatever it is. Like, to step into that space to be vulnerable. And to give that power to the relationship, because I believe that we can become stronger and more effective as a result of doing it. For me, that's the reason to actually step into it.

Karen: [00:10:24] Absolutely. And it is all in the service of that relationship. And because it's in the service of the relationship, I do want to give one sort of warning about this approach, which is. Well, we probably go into it hoping that they will do the thing we're asking them to do; fix the coffee maker, sort out the argument. Whatever it is. 

Karen: [00:10:45] There's a reasonable chance, a percentage of the time, it's going to turn out that that's not what happens. And when that's not going to happen. When the coffee maker isn't going to get fixed, or when the two people are going to stay at odds for a while, or whatever the thing is. 

Karen: [00:11:02] I'm going to be in much better shape with each of them if we've had the conversation. If they have heard my need, if they have heard the impact that it had on me. And then made a reasonable response, "I hear that it has that impact on you. I value the impact." "I value you. I value your feelings about it." And, "It's not something that I can or am willing to fix right now in whatever way." 

Karen: [00:11:28] That is going to keep the healing way better than if that conversation hadn't happened. So just layers and layers of where the relationships get stronger because we did the vulnerable thing in this case.

Paul: [00:11:41] That being transparent about it. Like, actually making the choice. And I think the thing that is important about the 'making people aware of what the impact is on you' is that particularly if you're one of the people who's involved in. Whose problem it is, right, who's in the argument, who's who's underwater from dealing with all these other things, and so can't get to the coffee maker.

Paul: [00:12:03] You may just not be aware of what's happening, of the impact that it's having on other people. So when you start to become aware of the impact that that's having, that's one thing. And then when you're able to say, "I'm not going to address that right now because..." Like, again, that that is the piece that makes the relationship stronger.

Paul: [00:12:23] And so if I'm the one who's saying, "Would you do this...", "You know, this is the impact it's having on me", you're totally right. I need to be "okay" with it not getting resolved. Like, I need to know that that's a real possibility. And that I need to be ready to cope with that in whatever way it is.

Karen: [00:12:40] Yeah. So we started with "Is this problem mine?" and really defined the question today as 'what do we do when there's a problem that isn't mine to solve, but is having an impact on me?' 

Karen: [00:12:55] Something that somebody else in my thinking ought to be doing or could be doing. But probably I'm thinking they ought to be doing it isn't happening and that's having an impact on me. And how do I avoid the two traps?

Karen: [00:13:10] So the first trap is, "Well, they're not doing it, so I'm just going to take care of it. I make it my problem to solve, even though it shouldn't be for probably good reasons." Or the other trap of "I'm just going to live with the problem not being solved and get grumpy about it" or resentful, or whatever. Carry that forward.

Karen: [00:13:29] Both of those seem not to work and that what we're proposing as an alternative is the vulnerable thing of identifying the impact that it's having on me and what my need is related to that. And sharing that with the people who presumably would be responsible for solving the problem, the people to whom the problem belongs.

Karen: [00:13:50] And so being willing to say to them, 'this is what's happening to me', 'this is what I need', and really leaving them in control of responding to that. And maybe they respond to that because having gotten into that relational space between they go, "Oh, it matters! I'll make that happen in whatever way." Or maybe they say, "I hear you, you matter and I can't or I'm not going to for whatever reason, do the thing that you're asking of me. That problem isn't going to get fixed."

Karen: [00:14:23] And either way, that conversation will have strengthened the relationship. It will have entered the space between and will be in a better, stronger place in our working relationship going forward because we did it.

Paul: [00:14:36] Well, that's going to do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: [00:14:40] And I'm Karen Gimnig. And this has been Employing Differences.