Karen: [00:00:06] Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

Paul: [00:00:14] I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: [00:00:15] And I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul: [00:00:17] Each episode we start with a question and we see where it takes us. This week's question is, "Can we have partnership with authority?"

Karen: [00:00:27] So this is a thing that, like so many of our episodes, shows up under very different language in the work I do than the work Paul does the most of. It turns out to be very much the same dynamic. And so we're going to talk about it from two frames, but the same pattern that we see.

Karen: [00:00:46] And one of them is in the sort of hierarchical organization work environment, where you have a manager and a report, someone that reports to that manager. So a very formal, fairly permanent lasting authority situation.

Karen: [00:01:02] And the other is the one I'm more likely to work in, which is where you've got someone assigned for a temporary or short term kind of authority role, like to facilitate a meeting. Could also be, you know, taking leadership of a sub team or something like that.

Karen: [00:01:16] But where there's authority that's either permanent lasting authority or short term, this meeting type authority. But you're in a role where there's an expectation that you will potentially tell people what to do is a way to say that and with some expectation that they'll do it. And within organizations where the value, the intention is to have a sense of partnership.

Karen: [00:01:40] So we're not looking for a manager that just tells everybody what to do. They follow instructions and that's it. We're looking for an environment where we want our reports, so to speak, our non-management level folk. To have ways that they engage, to have ideas that they share, to have some influence over the way the whole team works, to have their creativity engaged, all those kinds of things that happen more in partnership environments. We could also use words like psychological safety fits here, all of those things.

Karen: [00:02:11] So we say we're going to be in partnership in some way, and there is this overwhelming or overarching structure of authority. And can we do both? If there is an authority piece, can we also have that feeling of partnership? That's the question.

Paul: [00:02:31] Spoilers? The answer is yes. And it's hard. I mean, fundamentally, yeah, absolutely. But the reason why we're even asking the question is because it doesn't happen very often. Because it's very easy for us to fall out of partnership when we're in those types of situations, and those types of relationships.

Paul: [00:02:52] So what we really want to focus on here is kind of why does that happen? Why do we fall out of partnership when authority enters the picture? And also then what can we do about it? How can we start to nudge back towards that sense of partnership, that collaboration, that sense of mutual responsibility for things when we start to do it?

Paul: [00:03:11] And as usual, we don't want to give you the impression that authority is bad. As Karen pointed out, there are absolutely times where both of us sit in positions of authority, where we've been asked by a group to do certain things.

Paul: [00:03:25] Authority is one of those ways that we organise in groups to get things done where we appoint someone, or someone is appointed. Or someone ends up in a position where we expect them to help create some degree of order, within the group, to sort of protect us from some of the fallout of things that might be happening that we might be doing to maybe re-establish group norms and to enforce those.

Paul: [00:03:51] If we said these are ways that we want to work together, having someone who sits in a role where part of their job is doing that and they we grant them the power, they have the power to do that. That's sort of where authority works well. That's why when we work together in groups, this idea of authority or hierarchy comes up at all. Because it can be efficient to do so.

Paul: [00:04:13] And that's when we talk about bringing in a facilitator to help us work through some topic. We're asking them, 'help us to create some degree of order', 'help us to protect us from wandering wildly off topic and wasting our time and spinning our wheels'. 'Help us to continue to work together in the way we've said we wanted to work together by holding us to these norms that we maybe haven't fully articulated, and need to, but to do that'.

Paul: [00:04:37] And they're like, we are authorized as facilitators to do those sorts of things. And so authority by itself is not a bad thing. However, Karen and I have both noticed that it has a tendency to pull us out of that sense of partnership.

Karen: [00:04:54] And I think that happens because for most of us, the experience of really good partnership is rare. And the experience of really present and obvious authority is very common in our backgrounds. Starting in childhood, where we have no authority and are almost always in the presence of someone who has, and exercises, authority over us.

Karen: [00:05:18] And while I would like to live in a world where most of us grow up with parents who get the partnership thing- because I think this, by the way, does apply in the parenting realm as well, or in the teaching space or in working with adults and children. Most of us did not grow up in environments where partnership was part of our childhood experience.

Karen: [00:05:38] And then we come up into the world and we apply that sense of authority in the way we work. And then we're in, whether it's a Robert's Rules meeting or we have managers that don't know how to do this well, and it doesn't mean that they're bad people or they don't want to. It turns out to be a tricky thing, and it hasn't been part of the culture. It hasn't been a thing that we've been intentional about. It hasn't been a thing we've been trying to do.

Karen: [00:06:01] And so most of us have a lot of experience of authority that didn't do a very good job of supporting partnership. And that's what we expect it to look like. That's how we expect a meeting to run. That's how we expect a manager to behave. Whether I'm the manager or not, my expectation for a manager report conversation is a certain way. 

Karen: [00:06:21] And if we're not willing to disrupt those habits of behavior, we'll continue to land where we've been. Which was where we mostly had authority without partnership. And we don't have to be there. But I think it makes sense- and we want to really forgive ourselves, and forgive each other, a lot of grace around this because this is stuff that we do without even thinking.

Karen: [00:06:43] And if we don't think about it and really consciously change our patterns, we're just doing the thing we've always done. Except now we do it and say we want a different result. We say it's going to be partnership because that's become in vogue. Having the goal of partnership and the intention of partnership is very much in vogue. Having the skills to do it hasn't quite caught up yet.

Paul: [00:07:03] Mhm. And there's a very natural thing that happens is that you said this happens without us thinking about it, that almost always when someone has some degree of authority. That comes along with a degree of accountability, responsibility depending on what word you like to use there, for some sort of result. For some sort of thing to happen. 

Paul: [00:07:25] As a manager, that's "I'm responsible for this part of the organization and generating these kinds of results." "If I'm a facilitator, I'm accountable for actually this meeting going well, the group getting the result that they're hoping for." And it starts out with an explicit charge to hold those things.

Paul: [00:07:42] So that's why we grant people authority to do those things. And the problem is when the people who have that authority see that as only their responsibility. And when the people whom they are trying to be in partnership with agree that there is a shift in that responsibility; from instead of being partnership is about having mutual responsibility, and mutual accountability for results, where "We're both contributing to this because we both care about this", or as a group, "We are contributing towards this and we all sort of care about this and see it as responsibility."

Paul: [00:08:18] And what's a very natural to have happen is for us to go, "Well, if the meeting doesn't go well, that's the facilitator's fault!" Or "Mmm, if this organization doesn't succeed, that's the manager's problem!" And the funny thing that happens is that both sides sometimes collude to make this happen. 

Paul: [00:08:38] That the people who have the authority and the people who don't have the authority fall out of partnership for the most natural of reasons. Where we allow that sort of abdication of responsibility on one side and that usurping of sole responsibility on the other side to happen without us even realizing it.

Karen: [00:08:57] I think that's absolutely what happens. And this is the thing that's interesting, I think, is that when we give authority and I'm going to use the facilitation model, but I think plays out exactly the same in a manager relationship. 

Karen: [00:09:09] That because we've ceded responsibility for the meeting, all of what's happening in the meeting is now in one person's lap. That isn't partnership! I mean, fundamentally, we're not acting like it's a partnership at that point.

Karen: [00:09:24] And the thing that's interesting is that we can say "Your role as facilitator, is to stand at the front of the room and check in with people and say, 'This is the thing we're going to do next', or 'This is when we're out of time'" or that kind of thing. Like, you can be the person leading the meeting but still be an absolute partnership with the people in the meeting. Meaning, we all have responsibility for the meeting going well.

Karen: [00:09:50] So it's not up to the facilitator to say, "Oh, you're talking too much." It's up to each member of the meeting to regulate their own 'how much I'm talking' or 'what tone am I using' or 'am I staying on topic?' We don't cede all of the responsibility for how the meeting goes. Even as we assign the role of being the person who says 'this is the next topic' or, you know, tracks the time or that kind of thing.

Karen: [00:10:14] And so if we maintain partnership, we have an expectation that even though the facilitator is the one who is naming those things, and holding the structure in the order. That everyone in the room is holding the structure in order, everyone in the room is contributing to whether it goes well.

Karen: [00:10:32] And in order to know how it's working, the facilitator is also going to have to check in with everybody else. That it doesn't have to only work for the facilitator, it has to be working for everyone. So everyone needs to be participating and everyone needs sort of their needs and whatever acknowledged.

Karen: [00:10:50] And so as an example of one small piece we can do that makes a huge difference is if we're seeing a need to shift something. If we need to go to a different topic, if we need to take more time on a topic. If we need to shorten the time to do it in a way that that brings people along. So instead of saying, "I've decided we're taking this topic off the agenda and we're putting this other one on." 

Karen: [00:11:14] To say, "It seems like we need more time for this topic. One way we could do that would be to postpone this other agenda item. Does that work for everyone?" And you don't have to get everybody's voice in it necessarily. You can do a thumbs up or a look around and get nods or whatever, but that if I am very clear when I am in a position of authority. That my role includes making sure that what I'm doing or proposing or wanting to do will work well for everyone in the room. And they have a chance to tell me if it doesn't. Now we're in partnership because we're all owning it together instead, even though I'm sitting in my role of authority and doing that job.

Paul: [00:11:54] And it's those, those micro nudges, those moves back towards mutual responsibility and mutual accountability for results that are kind of the way that you get out of this, get out of the trap. And oftentimes it's the person in the position of authority who's in the best position to actually make those moves. But they have to recognize they're there.

Paul: [00:12:15] Barry Oshry talks a lot about this in some of his work where he says, "When we don't do this, when we fall out of partnership in this way, in the presence of authority, the people with authority feel burdened because they now have this responsibility and no one can." They feel isolated, right? Like, the problem is all theirs. They're the only ones who can solve it.

Paul: [00:12:34] I talked to a ton of managers who describe exactly this feeling of just feeling this weight on them. And at the same time, the people who are on the other end of that relationship feel oppressed. They feel like they have no ability to do anything. They can't contribute even if they wanted to. Not realising, of course, that they've also abdicated the responsibility for solving the problem, that they have a piece of that as well.

Paul: [00:12:58] And so oftentimes when we're in that role, so for example, as a facilitator trying to, you know, move back towards partnership to pointing out a thing, to asking questions of the group. The group may be very surprised by that and may not know how to respond. They may start to say things like, "Well, isn't that your problem to solve?"

Paul: [00:13:17] And so think what that requires of us when we try to make those moves back into partnership, to have some stamina around that. To be able to recognize we're disrupting the usual unconscious, often highly cultural pattern that exists in order to get back into partnership. So we have to have some, some resilience to kind of stand firm in that space of, "Yes, I have these responsibilities and this is what you're asking me to do. And also the way that we've been going about trying to get those things done of me just owning that by myself isn't working." "And so I want us to learn another way of doing that. I want us to learn how to get back into partnership, even though ultimately I do have responsibility for a number of these things."

Karen: [00:14:05] Yeah. And I think it might be even trickier in that management responsibility to hold that. But it's the same thing. It's this idea that, you know, ultimately it's my responsibility. Ultimately, if we disagree. And I really think it needs to be a certain way. With that responsibility comes, you may have to do the thing I tell you. That, that can happen.

Karen: [00:14:27] But that's not how I live my life every day. That's not how I interact with you every day. That's not how I, as manager want to structure the space between. So if I have a manager role, it's the job that's maybe the most important is for me to think about what is the space between look like. 

Karen: [00:14:43] And is there space between that we both have agency in? Is there a space between where we can work together? And because I'm fighting against this, you know, decades of history where we have all of these old behaviour patterns, as a manager, I've got to get really thoughtful about. I have to be curious, I have to be interested. And it's not just that I have to say the words, 'Does it work for you?' I have to mean it.

Karen: [00:15:09] 'I have to want to know does that work for you' and 'are you getting what you need?' And 'do you understand what it is that I actually want you to take authority for or take responsibility for or take off of my plate.' Even though I'm ultimately responsible for it. I want you to do it.

Karen: [00:15:25] And I want you to do it with creativity. I want you to do it with intelligence. I want you to do it with problem solving, which means I don't want to be in charge of it. Actually, you know, I want to do that. But am I communicating all of that and checking in and creating a sense of partnership in the space between.

Karen: [00:15:41] And that will feel different than probably any relationship you've ever had before, between either with someone who was managing you or as a manager. And it can be scary because it does mean you're holding less authority and it does mean there's more trust and there is more vulnerability in it. But there's also the safety and trust and functionality and psychological safety, all that stuff that we want that makes teams really effective.

Paul: [00:16:09] And if you're listening to this and you are a manager and are interested in working more this way, or maybe you have a manager who you'd be interested in having work more this way. One of the things I want to mention is that my business partner and our mutual friend Allison Pollard and I are actually getting ready to teach a whole class on this stuff called Managing Amazing People. We're going to be debuting that here this fall. If you're interested in finding out more about that, you can go to www.ManagingAmazingPeople.com. I'll have a link to that up in the show notes.

Paul: [00:16:37] But yeah, this is a really rich and complex topic that honestly, in just a few minutes here on a podcast, we can't dig as fully into as we like. But that you have to really not just want to do that, but show up with the skills to be able to do that. Both that sort of inner presence of being able to stand in that place of difficulty to shift the way of working. And then also just what are the actual tools that you can use? That's the sort of thing that we're really trying to get out more of that in the world.

Karen: [00:17:07] And so with that, I think I'll sort of wrap us up. I think where we've been is just acknowledging that we start from living in a world where authority lived in the absence of partnership for most of the experiences we've had. And that we have increasingly entered a world where there's an intention to have partnership, even in relationships where there's authority. And specifically looking as examples at a facilitator relationship with the meeting participants, at a manager's relationship with their reports.

Karen: [00:17:38] But any place where you have authority, but a value for partnership, which of course I always live with the value for partnership. So that's kind of my world. But those can seem mutually exclusive. And they really don't have to be, but that it takes an intention to shift and to think about, 'Okay, what is my role with authority that maintains space for partnership in the space between'. 

Karen: [00:18:02] What is my role as a meeting participant, as a report, as a person that has less of the authority in the room. But how do I stay in partnership for our objectives? How do I maintain consciousness about what I can do and how I'm participating?

Karen: [00:18:17] And when we can do that with a lot of curiosity, with a lot of checking in, with a lot of paying attention to each other's needs, that we get to a place where we experience partnership. And where we have the alignment between what we say we're planning to do, which is partnership. And what we end up doing, which is authority. 

Karen: [00:18:36] That we can get both of those happening in the same place and we can avoid the dynamic where the person in authority is feeling the burden of having to carry all the responsibility. And the person that doesn't have the authority is feeling oppression because they can't do the thing that they thought they were going to do.

Karen: [00:18:55] And we can avoid that trap, and instead maintain partnership. Even though there is an overarching structure of authority that serves us. That is a good thing, that is useful. So keeping what's useful about authority, but really bringing in strongly and with a great deal of intention and tools and skills. The partnership piece, so that we can hold that throughout our working lives, our organizational lives, when we're with other people.

Paul: [00:19:21] And that's going to do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: [00:19:24] And I'm Karen Gimnig. And this has been Employing Differences.