Karen: [00:00:06] Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

Paul: [00:00:13] I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: [00:00:15] And I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul: [00:00:17] Each episode, we start with a question and we see where it takes us. This week's question is, "Is this boundary useful?"

Karen: [00:00:26] So this is one of those questions that actually the theme of the whole episode is in this question. We could say this is the question we'd like you to ask. And the reason that we're pointing toward that word 'useful around boundaries' is because I very often see boundary setting at least the language of boundary setting "I'm setting a boundary", but what I really mean is I get to punish your bad behavior by setting a boundary. Or some version of retribution, or some version of sort of righteousness.

Karen: [00:00:58] Like as long as I say it's a boundary, I have an absolute right to it and that makes it a good thing for me to do. And sometimes that's absolutely true. But sometimes it's not.

Karen: [00:01:11] And I think where it's not is when setting the boundary that may or may not be sort of ethically right, that that turns out not to be as helpful to me. But it's not useful if I am using boundaries, either the term boundary, or whatever the actual boundary is. If I'm using that in a way that isn't going to support the relationship that I want, then it's not useful and not a good idea.

Karen: [00:01:39] You know, even if whatever judgement one might want to apply suggests that it's a good or right or righteous thing, it still isn't the thing that's going to get me what I want. So, is this boundary useful as a frame, that we'll talk about today, for those moments when I'm in the presence of behavior I don't like and I'm trying to figure out what I'm going to do.

Paul: [00:02:02] To be clear, like we've- there's like six things in that. I want to tease them apart a little bit. We've talked a little bit about- we've actually talked a lot about boundary setting here before. But I want to like be clear with folks when we're talking about boundaries.

Paul: [00:02:13] We're talking about trying to create the conditions under which we can have the type of relationship that we want. And in some cases, it's about I've said before, when I'm setting a boundary, it's about making sure that I have the best chance of showing up the way that I want to show up in this working relationship, in this being with you, to be further.

Paul: [00:02:32] And that's kind of what the usefulness is. What we're talking about is it's like, is it actually helping me to do that? Does it helping to create those conditions so that I can show up the way that I want so that we can have this type of relationship so that we can, you know, so that that can be there. That's kind of the usefulness piece.

Paul: [00:02:47] But also because 'boundaries' has been in the media and in the zeitgeist a lot recently about people using therapy speak to be abusive. To be clear, when we're talking about boundaries here, like when I say I'm, you know, 'I want to establish a boundary about this', what I'm really saying is that 'Here is what I'm going to do if this thing happens.'

Paul: [00:03:07] I can't actually control the other person's behavior. And a lot of ways boundaries aren't intended to do that. They're actually about 'What will I do, when a thing that I don't want to have happened, happens?" And being clear about that up front.

Paul: [00:03:22] So that may be when someone yells at me, you know, I'm not going to tell them, 'Stop yelling at me'. I mean, I may. But I may have a, like, 'Here's what I will do', right? And it's not just sit there and stew and resent them for doing it. It's an action that I will actually take that will allow me to actually get back into relationship, to do whatever it is.

Paul: [00:03:40] So I want to kind of point to those two things. We're talking about helping to create the conditions under which we can have the relationship we want, or I can move towards the thing that it is that I'm wanting. 

Paul: [00:03:50] And that two, boundaries are not about forcing the other person to do a thing. They're about what will I do when I find myself in a situation in a circumstance where I know that that's not contributing to moving towards the place that I want to be?

Karen: [00:04:05] Yeah, and I think you're absolutely at the crux of it and it's so important. I'm going to say it again in different words, the same thing that Paul just said, which is. If the frame of the boundary is "My boundary is you don't get to do that around me".. Well, good luck with that. Because I don't get to declare what you can do.

Karen: [00:04:24] And so if I want to set a boundary, the boundary isn't about what you are or are not allowed to do, because I don't get to decide that. The boundary is about what am I going to do if that happens. 

Karen: [00:04:37] And I certainly can clearly communicate that if I would like. And if I'm your boss, maybe the boundary is "If you refuse to do that piece of work, I'm going to fire you." But it's still, "I'm going to do.." It's not "You have to do the work.." You don't, actually. But "If you do, then I'm going to do this.." 

Karen: [00:04:53] Or in a less hierarchical kind of environment. "I'm not comfortable with the tone that you're using. And if you continue to speak to me in that particular loud tone, I am going to walk away." So it's not 'You're not allowed to talk to me that way' or 'My boundary is you don't get to..'. 

Karen: [00:05:10] My boundary is 'If you do that, I am going to make a different choice.' So it is a very much in that frame of 'What am I going to do?' And I think this is super useful.

Karen: [00:05:21] It still doesn't give you a pass. It doesn't mean that the person won't be mad at you that you walked away from them. It doesn't mean that if you fire them, you don't have to come up with somebody else to do the job. Right. It doesn't protect you from the consequences of the choice. It just means that you have clarity about the choice.

Karen: [00:05:38] And for me, it's particularly useful if I'm running into a repeated behavior and I don't want to keep repeating that experience that I've had. They do the thing and I stew or I get grumpy or I walk away resentful. But I've still participated in a way that allows that thing to keep happening in the way I don't like.

Karen: [00:05:56] So if I can think about, "Okay, next time this happens, it's happened ten times before with this person, it probably will again next time this happened. The way I want to set my boundary is if this happens, the thing I'm going to do is X."

Karen: [00:06:09] So I think that framing is super useful. And then still to hold with that. Okay, I got clear about what I want to do, but have I also thought about what impact it's going to have? Because even though it's what I want and a thing that seems reasonable to me, there may still be consequences to me doing the thing that I'm still going to have to live with. And so to keep that both pieces of that in mind.

Paul: [00:06:37] Yeah, I think that idea of what impact on the relationship will this boundary have is a really useful frame for thinking about what's useful. It's like, "Absolutely, I can do this." And will that still further the goal?

Paul: [00:06:52] I think the other place where we get caught up a little bit around the setting of a boundary is I think we kind of abstractly recognize like, "Oh yes, it's useful to do that", to create the conditions for engagement. That if we have no boundaries, bad things happen, we get take advantage of. We just get super resentful. People don't realize that they're, that we feel resentful towards them because we've never told them not to do the thing we really don't like. Like all of this stuff. Like they're actually kind of useful, we think.

Paul: [00:07:21] And yet at the same time, there can be this feeling that when I'm trying to set a boundary, the reason why I have to do it is because there is a need for it. That that is not our natural way of engaging. The way that I want it to be, it means that I'm trying to make the relationship into something else than it already is right now. Is that overly controlling? Like, is that- And I think we can get a little judgmental about that of ourselves and certainly of others, too. 

Paul: [00:07:57] When, you know, if you and I are working on a thing together and you basically say, "If we keep having these kinds of conversations, I'm going to leave." It's very easy for me to go, "Well, you're trying to control me, not letting me be who I am" and things like that. And so I think that, again, that's about the impact, that setting that can have on the relationship. But we can sort of we can second guess ourselves around that and then think, "Well, because this might have a bad impact, I'm just not going to create this boundary at all."

Karen: [00:08:26] Yeah. And I think it happens. I can speak for myself. You know, people hire me to help them with their relationships. So theoretically, I'm an expert on this and I'm very good at relationships. And of course, still humans, still have emotions. Just because I can guide you doesn't mean I always behave in the way I would recommend. That's all true.

Karen: [00:08:45] But even beyond that, I have my own standard, for I place a really high value on relationships. And so what's useful? What's the thing that I want? Pretty reliably, what I want is to maintain good relationships. And I want people to like me. And I want to feel like I'm the person that people want to come and talk to. And I love that role.

Karen: [00:09:07] So it's tricky for me when I run into somebody who repeatedly behaves towards me in a way that I just don't want to be around that behavior. I don't want to be around blaming or yelling or criticizing for me a big thing. And it isn't for everybody, but for me, when people sort of manipulate or they say one thing to make me think another thing and they avoid direct speech, that's a thing for me. I don't like it.

Karen: [00:09:38] And so I can get caught in this. I want to do all the good relationship stuff. I want to be the super good listener. And just because they're not a good listener, then I have to be an even better listener. Which is true, if I want to maintain a relationship with them. Like, if having that connection is important, then that may be a choice that I make.

Karen: [00:09:58] But what I'm coming to and I've had a few experiences over time with people that I lived in community with, for example, where I just repeatedly was in a conversation I didn't want to be in.

Karen: [00:10:10] And it just happened over and over again. And I'm like standing there in the conversation going, I don't want to be having this conversation. And I don't have the ability to turn it into a conversation I do want to have. And that doesn't feel right to me.

Karen: [00:10:24] It's that judgement that you're talking about- "How can I not want to be in a conversation with someone?" I like conversations, and I like those relationship things and all of that. But actually, I do have types of communication that I like and types of communication that I don't and ways I want to spend my time and ways that I don't. Topics of conversation I want to spend time on, topics that don't interest me and I don't want to spend time on all of those.

Karen: [00:10:49] And so there are times that I do want to set a boundary around. I'm not going to continue to be in a conversation that I don't want to be in, and I have to deal with my own sort of guilt about that. It is outside my usual way.

Karen: [00:11:05] And so I think it's worth noting that both boundaries that feel good and righteous may not be useful. And maybe I don't actually want to set that boundary, but also boundaries that are good and useful can feel judgemental and demanding and selfish. And yeah, unfortunately the way we feel about it may not be a good clue as to whether it's a useful boundary or not.

Paul: [00:11:27] That, I think is a key thing in there. It's like that emotional baggage around both the setting and not setting. I think it clutters things! And it isn't a useful compass to moving towards this.

Paul: [00:11:39] You said something at the very beginning of what you were just saying that I think is actually that is a useful compass. You said that "This is behavior that I don't want to be around" and I think that's the other piece. It can be 'I can have opinions and preferences and values and judgements around behavior without that being personal'. Without it being "You're a terrible person". And I think absolutely this is where we get caught.

Paul: [00:12:08] If it's like, "Well, if you do a thing that I'm not comfortable with, that's behavior I don't want to be around, then I think you're a terrible person. And so then blah, blah, blah", it's like, "Oh, but if I go, 'Well, that's just how you behave, but I want to be in a relationship now I'm going.' So if I don't want to do that now, I'm a terrible person", right?

Paul: [00:12:25] We can see sort of how this spirals. But I think that, you know, as we've talked through here a little bit, it's like what impact will this boundary have on the relationship was a question, you know, we talked about, but also what impact do I think this boundary will have on the behavior? Again, thinking about "Is this boundary useful?", do I think it's likely to shift the behavior or not?

Paul: [00:12:46] I think is another important question to ask around it. Because if it's not likely, to it's probably not useful!

Paul: [00:12:52] And so I think what we're trying to find is, is this a boundary that I can set where I can choose to do something in response to a thing that I prefer not to have happen, that I prefer not to be around? Can I choose a course of action that I think will not negatively impact the relationship and will diminish the behavior?

Paul: [00:13:13] Like that's ultimately where we're trying to go and I think if we can kind of tease those things and kind of look at it and go, Oh... And we may land! Then that's where we're trying to go. Like, that's kind of what makes these useful. And ultimately we may land in that space of 'I don't see an option for this. There isn't one.' So the boundary may just be, "I'm not going to be in a working relationship with you." "I'm choosing not to engage in as many relationships or as many conversations or whatever with you as there are, because I just don't see a good way to make this work for me. And probably for you too."

Karen: [00:13:50] Yeah, I think that's a really useful frame and I like the piece about my first go to is "Is there a way I can set a boundary that I can choose to behave differently maybe than I have been?" "If the way I have been behaving isn't getting what I want, but that will make the relationship work."

Karen: [00:14:07] Boundary doesn't have to mean I'm giving up on the relationship and sometimes there legitimately is not one of those. So things that I would look for there is if I just say what I want. "Hey, I notice you often speak in a really loud voice and that's very stressful for me. I wonder if you'd be willing to speak in a softer voice when you're with me." Right? Like, if that were the thing. 

Karen: [00:14:31] Or, "You talk for this really long time and I'm having a hard time paying attention that long, could you send me shorter pieces? Could I get you to focus on what's the most important thing you want me to hear? And I'll try really hard to listen to that."

Karen: [00:14:44] Maybe those kinds of asks work. Or maybe just they're really good at getting my goat, and I jump into the argument, and maybe I just don't jump into the argument. So I shift that. So it doesn't even- it could be an ask. It could be a change my reaction or response, that kind of thing.

Karen: [00:15:00] And then if it turns out that I've either tried or thought about and rejected all of those various options. I may very well get to a point, -and it has happened to me with a few people where I just say 'This person is very comfortable behaving in these patterns that they want to behave in.'

Karen: [00:15:21] And to your point, it doesn't make them a bad person, it just makes them a person. "I'm not going to enjoy being around and I'm not going to choose to spend my time there." And so I, my boundaries may be strategies for escaping those conversations as peacefully and kindly as possible. 

Karen: [00:15:37] But getting that clarity about, okay, first choice is stay in the relationship and see if we can get the behavior to shift. Second choice- Actually, this might actually be the first choice. Do my own work. 'Why is that behavior bothering me' and 'does it need to bother me?' There are other episodes where we've talked about that, but do we, is that a thing? And if none of that is going to work, how can I be peaceful and kind about setting boundaries that keep me from being in that engagement with that person?

Paul: [00:16:12] So to track where we've been here today, and we've been talking about boundaries, and where they're useful and maybe where they aren't. And sometimes the feeling, the idea that we're setting this boundary to punish the other person, we're setting this boundary out of the sense of righteousness. That's probably an indication that it may be on the wrong track.

Paul: [00:16:29] But sometimes those feelings, we might feel that and it still actually be a useful boundary. And the lack of a positive feeling about having set a boundary also doesn't tell us that we're necessarily doing it right or wrong.

Paul: [00:16:42] So thinking about it, again through that lens of boundaries are about creating the conditions under which we can have a positive, productive relationship. The type of relationship that in theory we both want. At the very least, it's the type of relationship that I want.

Paul: [00:16:56] In some ways, setting a boundary is about expressing your wants and needs and desires for relationship and what it needs to look like. And to be clear that there are about 'Here is what I'm going to do when this thing happens.' They're not about 'You have to do this' or 'You cannot do this. You don't get to do this.'. 

Paul: [00:17:15] It is about 'What do we choose to do when one of those conditions is no longer present?' One of those conditions, you know, sort of gets violated.

Paul: [00:17:24] And then the idea of looking at, okay, given that we've decided, you know, we know what a boundary is and we're trying to decide what we want to do, are we thinking about the impact that a particular boundary may have on the relationship? And the impact that it may have on the behavior's that we don't want to be around? 

Paul: [00:17:40] That ideally we can find a space where it's positive in both cases, right? We have a positive impact on the relationship. And that may be something simple as letting the other person know that we don't want the thing that they're doing. We don't want this thing that's going on. 

Paul: [00:17:56] Sometimes reminding them repeatedly that we don't want this thing to sort of help them learn that new pattern because this isn't their default sort of way of being around us. And then just recognizing that sometimes that's still not going to work. Or that the energy that we would have to put into it is honestly just more than we're willing to do. That they may be a perfectly fine person, but for whatever reason we can't have the type of relationship with them that we want.

Paul: [00:18:22] And so it's okay to choose to minimize the amount of interaction, the amount of relationship we need to have with them. And while that's okay, we're probably still going to harbor all sorts of self-judgment around that. 

Paul: [00:18:35] And learning to be with that, to do our own work about that, is an important part of setting boundaries that are actually useful.

Karen: [00:18:43] And that's going to do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul: [00:18:48] And I'm Paul Tevis. And this has been Employing Differences.