Karen: [00:00:06] Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

Paul: [00:00:13] I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: [00:00:14] And I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul: [00:00:17] Each episode, we start with a question and we see where it takes us. This week's question is, 'Do I need to say this?'

Karen: [00:00:25] So we're exploring this week, the situation where I have thoughts or opinions or ideas that, for whatever reason I'm hesitant to share. And that may be because I don't know if the information is useful. It may be because I'm afraid it will be received badly. Very often the scenario is that the thing that I have that I could share is critical of another person, or would be perceived as critical of another person, or of their performance, or is opposite the direction the group seems to be headed, particularly if everybody's all gung ho about a thing. And I'm thinking, I don't think I'm gung ho about that thing. I have concerns about that thing or that person that's being proposed for a role, that kind of situation.

Karen: [00:01:14] How do we know this is a thing I need to say? Or this is a thing that I need to not say? How do we come to that decision? And probably a bit of exploration around and then how do we do the thing if we need to say it, How do we go about that?

Paul: [00:01:32] Yeah, a couple of situations that come to my mind sort of around this are, I've been involved a number of times in hiring panels where as an organization we're deciding 'Do we make a job offer to this person?' Or if we're in a situation, we're trying to figure out someone going to get promoted, 'Who's going to take on this new role?' Are we going to- in volunteer organizations that I have been part of, you know, who do we choose to grant certain honors to, and who do we recognize, things like that. Or where, as a group, we're trying to make a decision about a course of action. Which of these three lines of business might we go down or these things that we might do?

Paul: [00:02:08] We're working in a group, there's input from members of the group is welcomed, at least in theory. And we may find ourselves in a situation where we're not sure what we have to share is going to be all that welcome. And I know I've certainly been in these cases where I'm going 'I feel like I have something that might be relevant, but I really wish someone else would say it.' 'I really wish I wasn't the person who needed to bring it.' And so that's really the kind of situation that we're talking about exploring here.

Karen: [00:02:39] So one of the things that I think is important, both in thinking about, should I say it and also in what I might say if I decide to say it, that it's the right thing to say, is thinking about the word I use here, is 'criteria'. And what I'm getting at there is 'What is relevant to making this decision?' 

Karen: [00:03:00] And particularly when we're talking about people. And I think we're mostly going to focus on people related decisions here. And I'll add as another example, in Sociocracy, as a decision making, there's a whole process of role selection where this happens, trying to decide who's best for a role. And in theory in sociocracy you actually, explicitly, as part of the process, name the criteria, the characteristics that you're looking for in someone who would be good at this particular role.

Karen: [00:03:28] And the thing that I want to be cautious about is that very often where we land by accident, and sometimes even when we're naming theoretical criteria, is something that amounts to a popularity contest. How well do we like them? How nice are they? And often, no matter what the role is, you get kind of the same 'We want somebody who's responsible and who's a good communicator and who everybody likes and gets along with everybody well and is really trustworthy.' And all of these like really broad, general categories of characteristics of people that we like.

Karen: [00:04:02] And the trouble is, for an awful lot of roles, likeability is not a very good predictor of success in the role. Popularity is not often a very good predictor of effectiveness in the role.

Karen: [00:04:16] And so we don't really want to be talking about how much we like them. We want to be talking about what their skills are related to the role, or in the case of an honor, what does that honor mean? What would we be saying if we say, if we bestow that honor, and would it be true about this person? Does this person meet that piece that we're looking at?

Karen: [00:04:40] And so getting really kind of honest with ourselves about not whether or not we like this person, because I can think somebody absolutely fabulous and still think that they're not going to be good at the thing that they're being talked about for, or that you know that they're being put up for.

Karen: [00:04:58] And so I think that's the first place to start, is to get clear in my own head and hopefully help the group get clear, although that's harder. But if I can get clear, at least in my own head about 'What is the criteria that I would like the group to use to make this decision?' And how does it relate to this specific role? And if I'm only using words that apply to everything related to the organization or that relate to everything, every friend I ever would want to have and those words, then I haven't hit the right criteria yet. What are the things specific? The thing that we're talking about that would cause us to choose one person over another, and what's then really relevant?

Paul: [00:05:39] I've done some consulting work with early stage organizations that are looking to bring on senior leaders, right, folks into VP of engineering roles and things like that. And one of the first things that I do with them is sit down and figure out 'What is it you're actually trying to hire for?' Like, what do you need this person to do that would allow them to succeed, to define that criteria?

Paul: [00:06:00] Because until the group can actually come to an agreement on that criteria, they're all going to be looking for different things in the interview process. They're all going to be volunteering different stuff. Having been on that side of the table, I understand why that's important to do.

Paul: [00:06:13] And so absolutely, I think the degree to which the group can become clearer about what it is that they're really looking for, what are their criteria in this decision, the easier it is to tell whether or not I've got information that's relevant to that criteria. That's kind of the first piece of being able to go, 'Okay, I've got this thing, it's coming up. Is it relevant?' 'Does it apply to any of these criteria?'. 

Paul: [00:06:38] One of the things I will sometimes do when, unfortunately, I often find myself in a situation where that criteria isn't clear. Like, we haven't necessarily laid out what all of that is. And so I kind of end up doing that on my own.

Paul: [00:06:52] But then I'm transparent about that. I'll say, 'You know, it seems to me..', or 'I'm assuming that what we really need in this role is someone who..' And I'll preface my comments with that kind of thing because I've gone through like the process of going, I've got these are my experiences, This is the things that I've noticed, This is the information that I have. Obviously, I'm not going to share all that. I try to apply that relevance filter, and if there isn't one that exists at the group level, I'm going to invent one myself. 

Paul: [00:07:22] But then I'm going to tell people what it is that I'm doing, because that way they have the opportunity to correct me and say, 'Actually, that's not important to this role. We don't need someone who's got a super solid grounding on the financials because actually that's going to be handled by this other person, this other role.' And then I can go, 'Oh, my mistake. Thank you.'. 

Paul: [00:07:43] So I think it's useful, obviously, to try to filter the thing you're thinking about sharing based on the relevance of the group's criteria. But if the group doesn't have criteria, figure out what yours are, and then be transparent about it. Because it makes clear why you're sharing what you're sharing.

Karen: [00:07:59] And the beautiful thing about that is that it also gets you out of the business of the popularity contest. So it's possible to say, for example, 'I really like this person that we're talking about. I thought they were lovely and I'd be delighted to have a cup of coffee with them' or 'already they're one of my best friends', even if I also need to say 'I don't think they're right for this role.' Right?

Karen: [00:08:21] So if you're clear about what your criteria is, then you don't get accused of, you know, you didn't like them or tanking their career or whatever their thing is. Like, it's possible to support them as a person, and even support them for advancement within the company. Just not this one.

Karen: [00:08:38] And that kind of authentic conversation is so important to getting the person who's actually going to succeed in the role. And so I think that's one of those where it tells us whether we need to say it, 'Does the thing that I know about this person, the experience that I've had with them, the story I could tell about something that they did or whatever, relate to the decision?' It helps me figure that out.

Karen: [00:09:03] And then that's the framework for sharing. It is also built into that same concept.

Paul: [00:09:09] And then I think comes the really fun part, which is when I've discovered that there's a thing that I need to share that is relevant, and I still feel super uncomfortable about saying it. When I still feel like, 'Oh, I may be going against the rest of the group here or against the prevailing opinion', or 'Everybody else seems to love this person and is saying really good things about them'. And maybe they're even sharing information that's counter to what I'm seeing, or what I'm noticing. And what am I going to do about that?

Paul: [00:09:36] And so for me, what I tend to do when I'm coming into these conversations as much as I can is if I've gone through that process of figuring out what's relevant, what's the information that I have that I want to share, and why it's relevant. That calms me down a lot. Because the last thing that I want is to come into these conversations where I'm sharing something and I'm super anxious or wound up around it. I really try to focus on, 'Here's what I've seen, here's what I observed', like getting as close to the data as I possibly can. Like, recognizing that our subjective experiences of things are a kind of data, but they're not necessarily an objective truth around things.

Paul: [00:10:15] But being as specific as I can about how, maybe in the interview process, when I asked about this particular role they had and I asked this question, this was the answer that I got. 'Here's what they said' or 'When I've worked with this person before when we were working on this thing together, this was what happened.' 'And here's why that rubbed me the wrong way' or 'Here's why I think that's not a match for what we're looking for'. 

Paul: [00:10:40] The more that I can get specific about those things, and just share. And think about it from the perspective 'I'm just sharing information and I'm also listening for what other people are sharing'. Because the idea is that we're all putting information into the pot that we now all have access to. If we're all sharing and listening, we're going to have a richer picture of what's going on than any of us is going to have on their own. And that only happens if I'm actually willing to say the thing, to put it out there. And which means I've got to call myself down first to do it.

Karen: [00:11:14] Yeah, I think that's really important that, what our emotional state is while we say it, is going to come through. So if I'm feeling anxious and panicky, other people will get anxious and panicky and that doesn't tend to bring out the best thinking and decision making.

Karen: [00:11:29] And I want to say two things really explicitly. One is I think Paul and I are saying that if the information is relevant, and fits the criteria and useful, then it's pretty important to share it. Because groups can't make good decisions without that information.

Karen: [00:11:44] I want to say the other thing, too, which is not all groups have a culture where it's safe to say it. Now, if that's the case, then think hard about either how you can shift the culture or how you can find a group where it is safe. Because we don't want people working in groups where the culture doesn't make it safe. But if you're feeling really, really anxious, I do want to give you permission here to say this is not the group where me behaving this way is going to be useful. Even though we wish it was right, even though we wish we had that culture.

Karen: [00:12:15] So do pay attention to that anxiety. 'What is it telling me?' Is it telling me that I'm working outside of the sort of norm I grew up with, where I was told, 'If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all' and you know, that kind of thing. And my sort of pushing the patterns of behavior in the group in the direction of the values that the group has named, and in the direction of the culture that we're aiming for, that kind of thing. And therefore getting that alignment sets me up to speak better.

Karen: [00:12:44] Or is the anxiety saying, 'Yeah, this may be who I am and what I think and what feels useful to me, but boy, is this not the group that's ready for that!' And I think it's okay to mitigate that. Like, I think it's okay to take all of that into account in the decision. And it's super helpful if you can consciously take all of that into account in your decision about 'Do I need to say this?'

Paul: [00:13:04] And I'd almost draw the distinction there between uncomfortable and unsafe, where if think about it, I love the way that you're kind of describing that. I thought about this before. If I'm noticing that this anxiety is coming from me, that I'm uncomfortable doing this, but it's in the service of what the group says that they want. And I can see that this is in alignment with how we actually want to operate. Then it is useful for me to do the work, to call myself down to do it.

Paul: [00:13:30] If instead what I'm feeling is a threat from outside, if I feel like 'I would be comfortable saying this except I'm in this environment where this thing is going on', then I might not feel safe. And so I think in situations where we don't feel safe around that, where that pressure to not say the thing may be coming from the outside, I think that is absolutely the case where you may want to see if you can push it a little bit. Or you may not, right? You may want to go, 'Yeah! Okay!' 

Paul: [00:13:59] I mean, I've worked in environments that have toxic positivity where any sort of naysaying can be seen as a career limiting move. And that's a case where I've not spoken up, not because I didn't feel like I couldn't say it, because of what was going on with me. But because it didn't feel like it was welcomed. It doesn't feel like it was wanted and it didn't feel safe for me to put that out there. For me, that's really useful to distinction to make.

Karen: [00:14:25] Yeah. So what we're talking about today is primarily in personnel type decisions. Where we're talking about whether this person is a fit for a role, for an honor, for a job, for a promotion, for a layoff, actually, could go either way. Any of those kinds of things.

Karen: [00:14:41] And I have information that I think could be relevant. Is it a thing that I need to say? And what we're saying is, first get clear about what the criteria is. 'What does the role need?' 'What does the honor mean?' What are the kinds of things that we're thinking about if we're doing this layoff and deciding who to lay off?' 'What are the factors that we actually want to be basing the decision on?'. 

Karen: [00:15:03] Keeping in mind that popularity, or likeability, are very likely not the key things. For certain roles they might be, but very often not. Or less so than we tend to want to put them in.

Karen: [00:15:15] And so what are those things that are really essential for this particular role? And then if I think that I have information or experience that gives the group information, within that criteria that would be useful, to share. That either how my experience fits within criteria that the group has already talked about and identified. Or very often, the group has an identified criteria.

Karen: [00:15:39] And so I have myself identified what I think the criteria is, and then I lead with that. I'm functioning from the assumption that what seems important to me in this role are these things, and this is the way this person maybe doesn't fit those things, even if I like them or whatever else, right?

Karen: [00:15:57] So that's the first thing is think about the criteria. And then in terms of sharing it, think about the data that you have to back that up. What is the information? And you know, anybody's memories and whatever are biased. But if you can reach to the data, as opposed to just naming opinions, that's going to be much more supported. And also keep you very in the frame of 'I'm helping the group make a decision. I'm not laying out an opinion of this person's value to the world or worthiness as a friend' or any of that kind of thing. 'I'm just helping the group make a decision related to that person and the criteria for the role.'. 

Karen: [00:16:35] And then the last thing we want to talk about was just the sense of anxiety that we can get going into this kind of thing. And both the importance of 'if I'm going to share the thing, manage my own anxiety first' so that I don't spill that out into the sharing. So that I can keep myself in the sort of criteria, data space. 

Karen: [00:16:54] But also to pay attention to where is that anxiety coming from. Is it kind of my own personal hang ups about saying something negative? Then I've probably got my work to do. 

Karen: [00:17:03] If it's about the external reaction of the group, because what I know about this group is that they don't welcome negative opinions. Or that they are in that toxic positivity space or whatever, that it may actually be the case that even if I shared it, it wouldn't be useful to the group. They wouldn't take it well. And in fact it could be unsafe for me to do that. So weighing all of that as part of the mix. 

Karen: [00:17:29] And then we're encouraging that if you're in a space where it's safe to do so, and the culture is, to do it, that sharing information is generally a good thing and generally useful.

Paul: [00:17:39] Well, that's going to do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: [00:17:43] And I'm Karen Gimnig. And this has been Employing Differences.