Employing Differences, Episode 182: How do I fix this?

[00:00:00] Paul: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals. 

[00:00:12] Karen: I'm Karen Gimnig. 

[00:00:14] Paul: And I'm Paul Teves. 

[00:00:16] Karen: Each episode, we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, 'How do I fix this?' 

[00:00:24] Paul: This is a question we get asked a lot. And in particular, where this question tends to come from is someone who's talking to us about a situation that they find themselves in.

[00:00:35] Paul: This can be in a partnership. It can be in a group. It can be in an organization where they notice something is not going the way that they want it to be going. And they want to fix it, right? They're like, 'This is causing me some difficulty. Maybe I'm noticing that it's causing some difficulty for some other people. That's not how I want it to be. How do I fix it?' 

[00:00:53] Paul: And unfortunately, what they're usually looking for is the recipe. Or the magic words, what's the thing that I can say that will change the way that this group operates so that we stop having this problem. 

[00:01:05] Paul: And unfortunately, the thing we pretty much always have to tell them is there are no magic words. There is no magic recipe for addressing these kinds of things. 

[00:01:13] Paul: But there are some patterns that we have noticed. Some things that we tend to do when you start to work with groups around these sorts of things, that can help in these situations. 

[00:01:24] Paul: So this is sort of a stepping back and looking at some of the larger ways that we tend to work with groups. And that when we encounter groups, that are not the ones that we need to be working with, it's the things that they're unwilling or unable to do. 

[00:01:38] Paul: So when we need to shift what's happening in a small or a large group or in a partnership, when we need to fix something, what is it? Karen and I are actually trying to do when we do that?

[00:01:48] Karen: Yeah. I think to dig in a little further to who we typically get this question from, and that's probably who this episode is for. Very often, I get clients who come to me and they say, 'You know, the group isn't functioning well, our consensus meetings are taking forever', or 'Decisions aren't being made well', or 'People are feeling run over', right, whatever their particular description of.

[00:02:12] Karen: But what they're really talking about is group dynamics. And nine times out of ten, I can say to them, ' I bet everything you're saying is actually happening.' Like, usually they have more of a part in it than they quite realize, but what we're talking about in this episode is, 'Yeah, that stuff is happening!'

[00:02:29] Karen: The structure that they're using for their meetings isn't very aligned with their purpose. The relationships are getting kind of damaged and shut down. There are dynamics happening that are preventing people from speaking up. All that stuff that people show up with, probably real. 

[00:02:44] Karen: And I'm going to guess that the person who's reaching out, to a consultant like Paul or I for help, is a person who is more skilled than average at seeing this stuff.

[00:02:53] Karen: And they're probably on a team with folks who just don't think about these things. They have ways of doing things that they've done for a long time that are just what they're doing. And it can seem like they're unwilling to change anything. And so that person that's talking to us, 'How do I fix it? I want this magic recipe because I know it could be better.'

[00:03:15] Karen: And 'I know that if we made some changes..' And 'I might even think I know what those changes are, but I can't get anybody to do them.' 

[00:03:23] Karen: And so in that stuck place, which is where Paul and I hang out all the time. What are the strategies that do work? 'If it's not a recipe, what do you do, Paul?'

[00:03:37] Paul: You know, and to be clear, what we're talking about is specifically about shifting group dynamics. About the ways that we interact sort of with each other. 

[00:03:45] Paul: And that's not the solution to every problem, but that is a space where we work very often. And, a lot of cases, keys to shifting group dynamics are starting with awareness.

[00:03:57] Paul: So one is 'an awareness of what needs fixing'. Or fundamentally, what's the bad things that are happening as a result of the dynamics that we have. 

[00:04:08] Paul: Cause it's not always that the dynamics themselves are a problem. Sometimes the dynamics are fine. They're just ill matched to the situation that we're in.

[00:04:16] Paul: And so as a result, we're not getting the outcomes, the results, the things that we really need. Or more likely they're working for some people and not for others. 

[00:04:25] Paul: And so part of that first step is creating a broader sense that something needs fixing. How do we help get into the more general awareness of people that something isn't right. 

[00:04:39] Paul: That in a division of labor, for example, 'Hey, we had an agreement, at some point. When we started working together, I was going to do this piece of this and you were going to do that piece of this. And that worked for us for a while. And over time that's changed.' 

[00:04:52] Paul: Something about the external circumstances have changed, like something's going on. And now that division of labor might be working great for you, or at least good enough for you, Karen, that you're still comfortable with it. And it no longer works for me. 

[00:05:07] Paul: And so you might be very willing to actually do something different if you knew. And if you could see that, in fact, the way that we are working together now is no longer working for me. But because I haven't helped you become aware of that, obviously, you're going to keep doing what you're doing.

[00:05:25] Paul: So that's one piece is just starting to sort of to understand what's all happening in the group, how it's impacting people differently. And getting people aware of how do we all respond, react, feel about what's happening now, not just how things were, but how things are now, and who is it not working for.

[00:05:45] Karen: Yeah. And I think that's really key. Because very often the senses, the person leading that meeting or whoever is behaving in a way that we think isn't useful, we get the sense that they just don't care how they're impacting other people. They don't care that nobody else likes it.

[00:06:00] Karen: And my experience on that is if they understood that people didn't like it or more to the point that it was having a particular negative impact, it was making people not want to share or it was making people not feel like coming to meetings or, you know, that kind of thing. 

[00:06:15] Karen: If they understood that was happening, they actually would care a lot, but they don't see it.

[00:06:22] Karen: And they may be predisposed not to see it. There may be a lot of reasons they don't see it. So I don't want to say this is an easy go-to because like most of the work we do, it's not particularly easy. 

[00:06:32] Karen: But if we can figure out a way within the language of the group, or of the particular person whose behavior we wish would change. If within the context of the group, we can find a way to draw attention to what's not working. 

[00:06:49] Karen: And you really do have to rely on the values of the group. Does the group have a value for everyone having a turn to speak? And something as simple as a log of how many times each person speaks, and showing that graphically, might be a way. It's not the magic bullet because we don't have a magic bullet, but it might be a tool.

[00:07:08] Karen: So, if you're looking at what's the evidence that you're seeing and what is appropriate within the group, or would speak to the values of the group? Because if you're in a group that expects to be hierarchical and 'You know, we think this is a meeting where the boss is going to say everything.'

[00:07:23] Karen: Then pointing out that the boss speaks more than everybody else isn't going to be helpful. So in that case, you may need to be looking at something else. Like, 'People aren't taking in the information. We need something more interactive.' And how do you show that? 

[00:07:33] Karen: So thinking specifically about your situation and getting creative about how do we bring to light the thing that you're seeing? The thing that caused you to say there's something wrong here. How do you get that visible to everybody? 

[00:07:50] Paul: And that second piece of awareness is actually about the fact that dynamics are even a thing, right? Because we live in this space all the time where we talk about on the show how we interact with each other, right?

[00:08:02] Paul: The ways that we interact, the ways that we collaborate. That ways of working, that process, that dynamics, that is a thing. And that we're very comfortable working at. And that's a little unusual. And in fact, oftentimes, once we have an awareness in the group, there are impacts that we don't like, right?

[00:08:21] Paul: That actually, there is enough of a sense that we would like things to be different. Then we start to have to bring an awareness of how are we interacting that is creating those impacts? Like what even are the dynamics at play here?

[00:08:38] Paul: And as you said, for example, things like noticing who actually speaks in a meeting. Like, bringing to light the patterns of interaction. 

[00:08:48] Paul: There's one group that I've worked in where, the pattern is pretty much always spoken wheel. All right. Where the designators leader says something, somebody else says something, the leader responds.

[00:08:59] Paul: Somebody else says something, the leader responds. Like, you can see that happening. If you know, to look for it. Because then you can start to ask, like, is that contributing to the fact that we get very little engagement? Or people feel bored when it's not their turn or, you know, this, this sort of thing.

[00:09:18] Paul: But first you have to become aware of what are the dynamics that are happening in a group and within a group. There will be different people who have an awareness of that. And different people having different tolerance for talking about those things. And recognizing that those things actually have an impact on the results we're getting.

[00:09:38] Paul: So first there's an awareness of the impact and second, there's an awareness of what are the dynamics. 

[00:09:42] Karen: Yeah. And I think that that concept of there are relationship dynamics and I'm going to give you part two and they aren't all the same. There are choices. 

[00:09:53] Karen: And I think one of the reasons that we get stuck in the patterns we get stuck in is that our leadership, typically the people who facilitate our meetings, or convene our meetings or call meetings, facilitate, might be giving them more credit than I would by my definition. 

[00:10:07] Karen: But that the people who are making things happen don't know there's another way. Like, they're doing it the way that they've always done it, the way that it was, you know, the way that the person did it that they took over from.

[00:10:20] Karen: 'It's always been this way. This is how you run a meeting.' 'There is 1 right way' kind of thinking. 

[00:10:26] Karen: So, not only there are dynamics, but also there are different types of dynamics that we can choose and they'll get different results. So bringing that concept into the group is often more useful than saying, 'This is the dynamic we ought to have.' if the group can tolerate thinking about it that much. 

[00:10:46] Paul: Yes. And that's always the space, right? Being able to figure out to what degree are they willing to have the conversation about how they're having conversations. This is that going meta spot. Where you have, I think we've talked about this on the show before, people have a limited tolerance in a group for doing that.

[00:11:03] Paul: So how do you make best use of your time around it? But that space, I often like to just stimulate the group's thinking. Particularly if I'm just part of the group, right? I'm not a facilitator. I don't have a designated position of authority. But obviously I know the kinds of things that I know, I'll just throw ideas out there.

[00:11:20] Paul: You know, it's things like, what have I seen other groups do in situations like this? What else have I noticed that works differently, that shifts things? Because again, sometimes it's a failure of imagination or a failure of exposure. Like we just haven't seen that there is a way to run a meeting other than Robert's rules of order.

[00:11:38] Paul: Because that's the only thing we were ever exposed to. But just being able to drop things in there and being able to say, 'You know, I was part of a group once that ran into a problem with brainstorming, where they really weren't getting very many ideas. And one of the things we tried doing was... and it's kind of through the year, I wonder if that might be useful to us or worth a try. And holding it lightly and seeing how the group responds to it.

[00:12:02] Paul: And I think that's the other piece of it is you're putting new things, new ideas into the group's consciousness, but you're not insisting that this is the way. 

[00:12:13] Paul: And I think that's the other piece, that when people come to us with the, 'I want a recipe for how to fix the group', they actually want the rigid plan that they can drive through. That if we do these three things, it's guaranteed to work. 

[00:12:23] Paul: And there is no guarantee of any of those things. We can come up with ideas of things that might be useful to try, but it really is. What appetite does the group have for doing things differently? Where can we engage people's curiosity? Where can we engage their desire for it to be different, to get them to start to think about dynamics a little bit and to maybe try shifting some of those dynamics.

[00:12:48] Karen: And I would say that particularly in a group that's not as interested in the meadow work, that's not as interested in the conversation. But maybe even if they are, one of the places we go wrong, and it's related to this recipe business, which is 'I want the recipe and I want to deliver it. And I'm going to take it in and say, this is the recipe. And this is what we should do because this is what will be better for everyone.' 

[00:13:11] Karen: That's a very top down hierarchy feeling. Nobody thinks that's what they're doing. But it lands that way. And there is something incredibly powerful about, 'I would be more comfortable if...' 'I would like it if..., would the group be willing to do this thing?'

[00:13:27] Karen: And maybe I don't have to convince you that it's the right thing or the best thing for the group. Maybe I'm just gonna ask it as a favor to me. Just like crazy vulnerable and nobody likes to do it and I'd much rather come in with the right definitive expert answer that makes you do the thing. 

[00:13:42] Karen: But the fact is, that hierarchy piece, that expertise reliance, is probably half of the problem.

[00:13:50] Karen: And so showing up from that more vulnerable place where I don't get to declare that this is right, or that it will work, or that it's essential, or necessary. All I get to say is that I want it, often is the most powerful thing. 

[00:14:03] Paul: Yeah, I want to underline that because in order to shift the group dynamics, you actually need to show up in a different dynamic. When we're saying, 'Hey, one person's always dominating the group' and hierarchical authority is the flavor of all of the dynamics, the tendency is to then try to shift the dynamics using that. And in fact, the most useful thing to do is the opposite. Because then you're starting to giving the group a feel of what it's like to do things differently, of what it's like to make suggestions and hold ideas lightly.

[00:14:33] Paul: And to stay with things. That doesn't mean you can't be persistent about it. You can't go, 'This problem isn't going away. So we're going to stay with it. But I'm not insistent that we have to do things this way.' Because that's also probably counter cultural. Because normally, when you have that hierarchical top down 'Here's what we're going to do...', it kind of squashes resistance, right? There's no room for pointing out that there are problems. 

[00:14:58] Paul: And so what you're trying to do is lightly, and sort of as non threateningly as you can model a different type of dynamics, which honestly is a different type of culture. And then see how people respond.

[00:15:12] Paul: It's really about finding the thing that people actually latch onto, and then going, 'How do we actually work with that part?' Cause that's the way through. We can't predict in advance which one of those it'll be, but that becomes the thing we can then work with and amplify to start to shift the dynamics.

[00:15:30] Karen: So we started with the question that we get asked a lot, which is 'How do I fix this?' And what we recognize about that is that very often people are hoping that there's a quick and easy recipe that they can say, 'Okay, group, this is what we need to do.' And we're saying we don't know of any recipes like that.

[00:15:48] Karen: We don't know of any magic words or quick strategies, but that we do know that this happens a lot. We're really familiar with this. And that there are things we can do. 

[00:15:59] Karen: And that the 1st thing is to help folks see what's happening. So if you're seeing negative effects, or things that aren't working well, very likely others are not.

[00:16:10] Karen: And so that's the 1st step, is to get some visibility of what maybe isn't working well. And then to introduce what may be a brand new concept to many of the people on your team, which is there are patterns, there are group dynamics, and there are choices about those patterns. There are ways and habits of how we're doing things that are what we've been doing, and we don't have to keep doing things that way necessarily.

[00:16:38] Karen: We have choices and we can think about it. So that we can draw attention to what are our patterns? What are our habits? How do we relate as a group? And is that working for us? And then might we want to try something else? 

[00:16:53] Karen: And we really want to bring up this idea that if you want the group to try something new, you're going to have to come to them in a new way. That using a hierarchical approach to try to change a hierarchical system is very unlikely to be successful.

[00:17:09] Karen: And that what we'd really encourage you to do instead is to show up from a more vulnerable, more suggesting, very light touch kind of way. 

[00:17:17] Karen: And ask the group to make shifts within what works for that group. Within the rules of engagement, within the dynamics that already exist within the value set of that group. That's the place to touch it. So that you can then work with the group possibly, probably slowly to begin to shift things and see different results.

[00:17:41] Paul: That's going to do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis. 

[00:17:45] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig. And this has been Employing Differences.