Employing Differences, Episode 185: Is this confidential?

[00:00:00] Karen: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.  

[00:00:13] Paul: I'm Paul Tevis.  

[00:00:14] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig.  

[00:00:16] Paul: Each episode, we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, 'Is this confidential?'  

[00:00:25] Karen: So one of the questions that comes up, I actually think more often than we really talk about it is, 'When do we want confidentiality, and when do we want transparency?' 

[00:00:36] Karen: Because we like them both. There are good reasons for both, there are useful places for both, and it's not actually that clean a line. And so, what we want to talk about today is, is this a thing that gets held confidentially, and then what happens with it?  

[00:00:52] Karen: So, if you tell me something, and we agree that I'm not going to say anything about it to anyone else, What does that mean? 

[00:01:01] Karen: What are the boundaries of that confidentiality? And also, what does it mean about what I'm going to do with that information, from 'nothing', to 'act on your behalf in some way' to whatever else might be.  

[00:01:14] Karen: So that's the space we want to explore. And we want to explore it because it gets really messy. This is fundamentally trust stuff. 

[00:01:22] Karen: And if you don't hold things in confidence, you break trust. But if you're not transparent, you also break trust. So how do we navigate this where we want to be in trusting communities, trusting environments, trusting workplaces. And some things need to be confidential and some things need to be transparent. 

[00:01:42] Paul: I think an important part of that is recognizing that confidentiality doesn't mean just one thing. I can think of at least three different sorts of things that you might describe as being confidential. But that all have different conditions around them for what's valid to share.  

[00:02:00] Paul: Because that's really what the idea of confidentiality is, that we're going to have a conversation. We're going to do something together, you know, as a group or as a pair, and then there are going to be some limits on what we are allowed to talk about what happened. Or where there's some limits on what we can and can't say about what was shared in that conversation and things like that.  

[00:02:22] Paul: And confidentiality as it gets used, you know, as a blanket term, covers a wide range of those things. 

[00:02:30] Paul: And I think it allows you to be transparent about some things and not others. So for example, in a workshop context, I will often share with people, "Here's the confidentiality I'm asking you to hold." I'm asking that you can talk about after the workshop, what your experience of it was. 

[00:02:47] Paul: So you don't need to say nothing about what happened. You can even talk about sort of things that we might've done or activities that we did, you can talk about your experience of it. But what I prefer is that you don't share anyone else's stories. You don't say this person shared this thing about what happened in there when they were talking with their manager. 

[00:03:06] Paul: Or sometimes some groups have a, an even more relaxed version of that, which is you can share those sorts of things. So long as who said it is not identifiable. So it might be, yeah, someone shared that their manager has a tendency to do this kind of thing. And if it turns out everybody in who attended the workshop has a manager. That doesn't identify who it was. And so that can be useful.  

[00:03:29] Paul: That's different than say, "Karen, I'm coming to you because I need to work out how I'm going to do this. And I don't want you to even tell people we had this conversation."  

[00:03:40] Paul: Both of those are shades and versions of confidentiality. I think we need to be clear when we're talking about something being confidential, where along that spectrum we mean, in terms of what can be shared and what can't be. 

[00:03:55] Karen: Yeah. And I think another gradient to be thinking about is what's the confidentiality that you have amongst a group of relative strangers. So say you go to a workshop and there are people from various companies around, and what you were talking about that, that's one dynamic.  

[00:04:12] Karen: It's a different thing of say we're in a team meeting. We all know each other. We all know each other well, and we all know each other's friends or, or other coworkers or other things out and around. What we need to hold as confidential is going to be different.  

[00:04:29] Karen: So I think it's important to think about where are we in terms of how well we know each other and how things might spread and what the content is. 

[00:04:36] Karen: And of course, there's confidentiality around trade secrets, for example. Those kinds of things that can't be shared because patent law and all that kind of thing. So it really depends on what's the goal. And I think where Paul and I are wanting to play with it is where. It's really the interpersonal trust element that we're looking at, and I definitely am especially careful if I'm in a subset of a group that knows each other well. That's the place where it's going to go haywire most quickly in general.  

[00:05:08] Karen: You know, Paul and I met at a conference and we had this conversation and then I went back to work to a bunch of people who don't know Paul and never will and say, "Hey, this guy named Paul told me this very interesting and useful story about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." 

[00:05:20] Karen: That's very unlikely to hurt Paul. It's very unlikely to damage trust between us. We're probably going to be fine with that.  

[00:05:27] Karen: Totally different if Paul and I share the same workplace, go to that conference together, and then I go back to the people who know both of us and tell the story exactly the same way. It's very different impact. So that thoughtfulness.  

[00:05:40] Karen: But the other piece is that oddly, the place where telling the story is most dangerous, is also where it's most useful. That being able to share openly and honestly what we think, "I really don't like the way my manager is treating me" might be cathartic to go tell a bunch of strangers, but it might change the way my manager treats me if I can have that conversation in an authentic transparent way within the company and ideally with my manager. 

[00:06:10] Karen: And so there is that push and pull of where we most want the confidentiality is also where we most need the transparency.  

[00:06:19] Paul: And this gets to something that you and I have talked about on the show before. That really what we want, part of the thing that transparency gets you, is the ability to actually talk to each, other instead of about each other. Instead of gossiping and venting and, you know, doing whatever else it, is and leaving it there. 

[00:06:39] Paul: I really want to be able to do something that moves things forward. And so one of the things I think that we've been talking about a little bit is about how confidentiality shapes 'What happens next?' Like, what's the next step of action.  

[00:06:53] Paul: So this is where things can get really problematic. Because I come to Karen to vent about my relationship with my manager, expecting that she's going to go do something about it, but hold this conversation confidential. 

[00:07:05] Paul: That starts to get into real problems. On the other hand, a thing that we talk about a lot on the show is I come to Karen and I ask her to hold this conversation in confidence. Because I need to work through my ability to actually have the conversation with my manager. That I need to do the vent and the gossip and the like, sort of get it all out, and have her hold all of that. 

[00:07:27] Paul: And then me be able to go, "Okay, so I don't want to say any of that. What I do want to say is..", and so it creates a safe space for me to figure out what action I can go take.  

[00:07:38] Paul: How can I then go and now be transparent. That in some ways, like being able to have that space of confidentiality allows me to figure out how to create transparency. How to have the conversation that I've been avoiding and that I'm worried like, if I don't go in with any sort of preparation is going to be a problem.  

[00:07:56] Karen: Or possibly even to decide you don't want to have that conversation after all. You know, that could be another outcome, but that you have a safe space to just work through, I think makes perfect sense.  

[00:08:09] Karen: The reason you don't want to do it the other way? So we'll play that scenario out a little further. So Paul has come to me and said, "I don't want you to say it came from me, but I really want you to fix my problem I'm having with my manager." So now imagine that I then go to Paul's manager and say, "You know, I can't tell you where I heard this. But you really need to change what you're doing in X, Y, Z way, because of some things I know that I can't tell you."  

[00:08:39] Karen: And whether I say it straight out, or whether I try to work around it backwards and they sort of guess that, what happens is that the trust between me and the manager tanks. And the manager, if they have any sense at all, starts to be very suspicious about the community. 

[00:08:54] Karen: The whole thing gets very untrusting because the manager's going around going, "Well, who's unhappy with me?" Or "Where did this data come from?", or "What happened with that?"  

[00:09:03] Karen: So the theoretical protection of the confidentiality actually goes all kinds of sideways. And it creates a situation that's exactly the opposite of what we want. 

[00:09:14] Karen: What we want is a transparent place where Paul feels safe going to tell the manager, or the co worker, or whoever, what's going on with him, and what he needs. And there can be a useful, productive conversation about that.  

[00:09:28] Karen: And what we've done instead is teach Paul that he can take the easy way out. He can get what he wants while being totally safe, which is to say not at all vulnerable, not in relationship, not trust building. Like, he doesn't have to do the hard work. He can get what he wants by dumping it on me.  

[00:09:46] Karen: This is not a good pattern. And what ends up happening is that the power dynamics go all kinds of sideways. And people feel really unsafe and even betrayed. That, you know, I mean, maybe Paul came to me as the manager and said, you know, same conversation, but it's about like the whole workspace. 

[00:10:05] Karen: Or I take an action that would make no sense if you don't know what Paul said.  

[00:10:09] Karen: And then the sense of trust and buy in and all of that goes wonky because we've got someone getting their way without having to ask for their way. And I would say that's even worse if you're not in a hierarchical situation with a manager. But if you're in a more collaborative, egalitarian kind of environment where consensus is supposed to happen. You really don't want anybody taking actions on behalf of the group on the basis of stuff the group doesn't get to know.  

[00:10:39] Paul: Right. Yeah. The other thing that I come back to a lot is the idea that I hear a lot in organizations while we need to have these anonymous feedback so people can say what they really think and we can get this information out there.  

[00:10:53] Paul: And I'm generally opposed to that for two reasons. One. It doesn't actually create any possibility of dialogue. If I'm getting feedback and I don't know where it came from, I can't engage with it. 

[00:11:05] Paul: I can't get more curious about it. Even if I'm receiving that well, I can't do anything else with it. I think that you can occasionally use that well to set things up.  

[00:11:15] Paul: So things like, for example, gathering feedback, getting sort of presented anonymously, But then being as a whole group, we're going to have a conversation about this. And we'll be able to say, "So, things came up like some of the things that came up in the survey were..." and no one has to necessarily out themselves, but you need to talk about those things. 

[00:11:33] Paul: I found that when you do that, oftentimes people will say, "Yeah, I was one of the people who said that." It can be useful for sort of giving the person who is going to receive that feedback the opportunity to work through their reaction to it outside the rooms before they're, you know, sort of on the firing line. 

[00:11:52] Paul: And so there's a small space where I think that can be useful, but it's not when all you do is this anonymous feedback. There's got to be a, "We actually have to work with it as a group."  

[00:12:03] Paul: But the other thing is that I think in general, the anonymous collection of feedback distracts from the real problem of building the degree of safety and trust necessary to actually be able to not have to give anonymous feedback. That it's a, people often say, "Well, this is a step towards that." 

[00:12:20] Paul: And I rarely see that. I see that as the only step that people take, they don't actually do the work. To go, "Well, what would need to be true in order for us to be able to have non anonymous feedback?" 

[00:12:30] Paul: As my mentor, Mary Beth O'Neill says, "Talk to each other more than we talk about each other." 

[00:12:36] Paul: And that's really the thing that we've mentioned a couple of times on the show that I think is important, is recognizing that when we're not talking to each other, that can be really useful if it's a way to figure out how to talk to each other. Not to avoid talking to each other.  

[00:12:52] Karen: Yeah, I would agree with all of that. And I, I have done the anonymous feedback thing as an outside consultant, but what I'm looking for usually is, are there things going on in the group that everybody's aware of, and nobody's talking about. Or that some people are aware of and others aren't.  

[00:13:10] Karen: In our power dynamics episode, some months back, we talked about how the people who have the most power tend to be least aware of the power differential and those with the least power are the ones who know about it. 

[00:13:23] Karen: They may be more likely to say so in an anonymous feedback situation, but again, when I have done that, it has been for the purpose of sharing aggregate data. So if I collect things anonymously, I am going to report back, and I report back in the frame "at least two of you told me X". If only one of you said it, I may not bring it up, which means if you're the only one feeling that way, you're not going to get your way over having told me. Cause I won't probably say it. 

[00:13:51] Karen: But also it's more of a group knowing themselves exercise as opposed to feedback that's aimed at like trying to behave, change the behavior of a particular person. It's more sort of that group awareness thing. So I think there's a place for it. But again, as we so often say on this show, be thoughtful of what you're trying to accomplish.  

[00:14:12] Karen: And like most things, confidentiality is a good thing in its place well defined. Transparency is a good thing in its place with clarity and trust around it, but which are you after for your goals right now?  

[00:14:27] Paul: So to track sort of where we've been on this, we started talking about what confidentiality is. The idea that it does have these different gradients and different meanings, and it is important to align on that.  

[00:14:37] Paul: Recognizing that the context in which we're sharing things and talking about things may flavor what's appropriate for us to have when we're in a tight knit group, where we all know each other, and all of each other's friends and family, we may have some different needs for confidentiality than when it's strangers meeting each other at a conference. 

[00:14:56] Paul: And also recognizing there's always legal components to this than in any organization, there are things that for legal reasons, we can't talk about.  

[00:15:03] Paul: But recognizing that confidentiality isn't one thing, it's a lot of different things.  

[00:15:08] Paul: And then thinking about like how we can actually use confidentiality as a way of building interpersonal trust, rather than what can happen when it goes wrong, which is where it destroys interpersonal trust. 

[00:15:21] Paul: Where we need to be thinking about what conversations does it allow us to have so that we can take action appropriately, as opposed to using it to kind of subvert our systems or our processes.  

[00:15:34] Paul: Where things can come out sideways so that people can get what they want without actually having to do the real work of engaging with the other people, with the systems of the way, the way things that are, the way we've agreed we actually want to work. 

[00:15:47] Paul: How are we using confidentiality and how are we holding space for the conversations that need to happen for the larger things to happen.  

[00:15:54] Paul: Recognizing that sometimes I may need to come and vent and figure out what I'm going to say. And what I'm going to say is going to be nothing. I recognize, "Nope, this isn't a useful thing for me to dig into", but sometimes it is, "This is a thing that I want to dig into. Here's a better way of doing that, but I'm going to take the impetus and the burden on myself to actually go and do that."  

[00:16:12] Paul: And recognize that ultimately we're wanting this confidentiality to actually being a way of creating a better flow of information, a better and higher quality flow of information, rather than just hiding things away forever, or sort of letting things come out sideways. 

[00:16:28] Paul: How can we improve the ways that we talk to each other rather than just about each other?  

[00:16:33] Karen: And that's going to do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Karen Gimnig.  

[00:16:38] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis, and this has been Employing Differences.