[00:00:00] Paul: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

[00:00:11] Karen: I'm Karen Gimnig.

[00:00:13] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis.

[00:00:10] Karen: Each episode, we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, what's going on with them?

[00:00:23] Paul: A phrase that we use a lot on the show is, the story I'm telling myself about that is. This is one of our favorite tools for recognizing when there's information that we just don't have. A thing happens out in the world, we see this thing, we don't necessarily know why somebody did this, what led them to do that, and we make up a story about, well, this is why they did that, this is what's going on, this is their intention.

[00:00:07] Paul: And that's something that we've talked about on the show because that's often a useful thing to recognize where we're inserting ourselves into that process. And today we want to explore the idea of what's going on with them from a different angle, recognizing that what's going on with them isn't always something we get to know.

[00:01:09] Karen: And I take it even further and say I don't think we ever get to know it completely about another person. I mean, we come closest to the people that we are closest to, of course, or that we spent the most time with. But at the end of the day, any action that I might take that's premised on the idea that I have full and complete knowledge of what's going on for another person is really dangerous territory.

[00:01:36] Karen: That, in fact, there's often stuff going on that we don't know about. And the less closely connected we are to that person, the more dangerous it is. So in work environments and organizational environments and the kinds of spaces that we're talking about on the show, the likelihood that I have enough information to actually know in any useful way that that person didn't do their share of the work because they're just lazy or that that person said that mean thing because they're trying to hurt someone or whatever I might attribute to. 

[00:02:14] Karen: And frankly, it's also true the other way, it's just not as damaging. It's also unlikely that I know that they did that wonderful sweet thing out of the pure generosity in their heart. That's probably not true either actually, but less likely to be damaging if I think it or act on it. But the point here is that we very often base our behaviors, base our conversations, base our decisions on what we think, not just that the other person did, but why we think they did it or didn't do it, as the case may be. And that gets us into really big trouble. And it's such a difficult habit to break.

[00:2:54] Paul: It is incredibly difficult habit to break. I think one of the reasons for that is, and we talk often about the idea of intention and impact, right? That intention and impact are not the same thing. Like I can intend for this thing to happen, but what actually happened when I did this other thing was it had this impact, right? And feedback usually is about pointing out what the impact was. And oftentimes I think we just really wanna be seen for our intentions, because they, and so we know what our own intentions and our own, you know, why we were doing a thing. 

[00:03:27] Paul: And we often privilege intention, right? We say, well, why they did this thing matters, sometimes even more than what they actually did. And so I think we get caught into that thinking ourselves. And so then it becomes fair game to well, one to comment on, well, they did this thing because this way. But that's the product of thinking about it that way, that we could know what someone's intention really is. And, and certainly when you're actually working together, right, it's like one of the things that I tell people, right, when they're like, well, I want to give somebody feedback, right? Or it's like I'm working with a manager and they need to give feedback on this thing. It's like I warn them away, like the other person's inner life, their motivation for doing this, the like what was going on with them as they were thinking about it. don't, you know, certainly don't give them feedback on it. 

[00:04:15] Paul: But to the degree you can, like, don't speculate about it because it doesn't, you can't know it, you know, to your point. But I also think it's dangerous to think we need to know it. And I think that's where we get into trouble sometimes as we start to go, even if I can break myself of the habit of commenting on of saying, "Well, you're just saying that because. I'm like, well, I don't actually know why you're saying that." I'm telling myself a story that you're telling. And so that can be useful to recognize, "Oh, that's coming out of my story." The degree to which I can stop actually in some ways caring about why they did the thing they did is the degree to which I can be a little bit more effective.

[00:04:56] Karen: Yeah, and I think there are a lot of ways that we go about this that can be productive. I mean, we've told you lots of times to be curious about what's going on on the other side. This is another theme of our episodes. And that sounds contradictory to what we're saying today. So I just wanna call that out, that if Paul does something that I don't like, and I have an idea of why he did it, and we'll just say that I would go to, "Well, Paul just canceled on me today because he's just lazy and doesn't care about this podcast anymore." Right?

[00:05:29] Paul: Right. 

[00:05:31] Karen: And I can say that to myself and I get myself all worked up about it. And it's actually probably useful if at that moment I go, wait a minute, what else could be going on here? Like what else might be going on? not because that's going to tell me what is, but because it's going to help me let go of my first go-to story. So if I go, you know, maybe Paul had a really busy time at work that he didn't tell me about, or maybe Paul's having a really bad, maybe Paul's cat died. And I don't know that. And he's all broken up about it.

[00:06:02] Karen: Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe like that's the curiosity thing that The next step is to not need those steps maybe, but that it is useful to say, if I'm stuck in a story, it can be useful to get curious and say, what else might be going on for the purpose of saying, I don't know. And helping me get to the place where I can say, I don't know what's going on over there. And hopefully that I can start to be peaceful about that.

[00:06:35] Paul: Because the step beyond that is the, I don't need to know, right? It's the, how can I get to the point of, like, and I love that idea of the alternative explanation theory is one of my, or tools is one of my favorite ways of starting to recognize, "Yeah, this is just the first story I tell myself about this thing." And then I start to notice there's a pattern that I always tell myself about these things. "Oh, this is really more about me, isn't it, than it is about anything that the other person is actually doing?". Spoilers.

[00:07:02] Paul: But then when I start to go, okay, yeah, I haven't heard back from this person because, I don't know, why might that be? Maybe they're on vacation. Maybe they are really overwhelmed with their work. Maybe it's not that they think I'm a terrible person, which is the story I always go to. It's the first one. When I start to do that enough, then I can start to go, you know, maybe I can trust that whatever it is that they did, they did it for a reason. And I don't need to know what that reason is b ecause that's the place where we can get is we can go, well, if I knew what the reason was, then I would feel okay with it. 

[00:07:42] Paul: And what we're really pointing and then we ask, why didn't you call back? Which itself can be a problem of that digging to satisfy our own curiosity to go, it's good to be curious. It's not good to interrogate. And so if I can get to that point of just going, you know what? I can trust that there was a good reason why they did that. I'm not in their environment. I'm not in their situation. I don't know what that reason is. And honestly, I don't need to know what that reason is. And so I don't need them to tell me if they volunteer it, that's great.

[00:08:17] Paul: But but it can I get to that point of going? I'm sure whatever the reason was, it was a good one because they're a reasonable human being. And, you know, just like me, they have things that happen in their life. And I can sit with that and I can trust with that and I can and I can work with that. That's a place to to really be able to get to. And it's hard.

[00:08:37] Karen: And I think it's hard because of a piece that comes with it, which is if I don't get to know it, It means I don't get to control it. I don't get to judge it. I don't get to, you know, like if I knew that they were struggling with lifelong depression and this was a bad week for them, then I could feel, you know, compassionate about being forgiving and I can decide for myself to be okay with whatever. 

[00:0:05] Karen: If I don't get to know, I can't fix it. I can't do anything about it. I can't help them. I can't make it better. So I don't have any control in that way. And also, I don't get to decide, it's not up to me whether it was a good enough reason.

[00:09:23] Karen: And that feels less powerful because it is. It's way more vulnerable, which it is. It's also what works in relationships. It is that piece, and Brene Brown has a piece in one of her books about this where she talks about, I just believe that people are doing the best they can. 

[00:0:43] Karen: Do I know that? Can I prove it? Is it in the research somewhere? No, but my life works better when I believe that people are doing the best they can. And, and I think that's part of this is I don't need to know, because I do know that it's the best they can do. And whether that's because of bad decisions that they made before, or because they're not that smart or because I don't know why.

[00:10:07] Karen: But they are who they are. That's the reality. And they're doing the best they can. And what I can do is figure out how I'm going to respond, not to why, but to just what they did without knowing why and with an understanding that it's the best they can. And if I can be in that place, then I don't need to know why.

[00:10:28] Karen: I can get curious. I could say, you know, I noticed you're late a lot and, you know, would it help you if we made it later start to the day or something? Like, I mean, it's not, I'm not saying don't problem solve. I'm not saying don't be supportive or compassionate. I'm not saying don't be curious, but this idea that in order to be compassionate and caring and helpful, I have to know why really puts us in the place of judgment, which is always bad news for relationships.

[00:10:54] Paul: Yeah. And it's we're also not saying like if this behavior has a problematic impact that you let it slide. Right. Because we can't ask or because we need to assume that they're that they're doing the best they can. Right. It's like great that like you still can talk about what they did. You just don't need to know why they did it. We can talk about, and maybe we're gonna get into that, but is it like, if what you're doing is causing me a problem, right? Then we can engage around that, right? We can talk about in the meeting yesterday, you yelled at three people.

[00:11:36] Paul: I don't know what's going on with you. I don't need to know what's going on. I do need to let you know Yelling is not acceptable. This is another Brene Brown thing. Being angry is okay. Yelling at people is not okay. So I'm not trying to control your feelings. I'm not trying to tell you, I don't know, I trust there's a reason why you did it and you need to not do that again.

[00:12:02} Paul: What can we do? How can we move forward with that? So we're not saying that you just let it slide. But we're saying you don't need to get into the other person's head if there is something that you do need to change about the situation. You can engage with them around the behavior and around the impact of the behavior without knowing what their intentions and their situation and their motivation is.

[00:12:27] Karen: And when we do that, we create a space where they can tell us what they need without having to tell us why they need it. We create a space where they can ask for the help that they're looking for without having to defend that help, without having to feel like they're entitled to it. 

[00:12:44] Karen: And, you know, and some of our audience I know is, you know, work in hierarchical business, corporate kinds of environments. And if someone can't do the job effectively enough, do you need to consider letting them go? Sure. We're not we're not saying anything about that. What we're saying is that it doesn't help us figure that out. if we're caught up in all of the judgments about they're lazy, or they don't care, or they, you know, whatever, you know, we've taken whatever steps we can.

[00:13:12] Karen: And for reasons that do not matter, they can't do the job that we need them to do, then we let them go. Or if for reasons that do not matter, they, these two people don't work well together. We've, you know, we've tried some intervention or whatever. We don't need to judge who's right or who's wrong. We just need to figure out a way to go forward that we can get the tasks done that each of them need to do without asking them to work together if that's the thing. 

[00:13:37] Karen: But we get so caught up in that we need to know what it is about that person's, you know, what's the flaw in their personality or what's the, you know, disaster in their life or whatever as a there's a reason to engage in a certain way, that kind of thing. 

[00:13:59] Karen: It doesn't help. And so what we want to get to is we start from the premise that everybody's doing the best they can. recognize that we don't necessarily know why they do or don't do. And we can be curious and interested from a helpful place, but it's not at all useful to be in a judgment place. 

[00:14:18] Karen: And if I find myself saying they just don't care or other judgmental things, I need to get really clear that I don't get to know. And I really hate that I don't get to know because I feel out of control and I feel like I don't have choices and I would really like to know, and I'm really good at knowing things. And I'm so happy when I know things and I really, really want to know. and I don't get to know.

[00:14:39] Karen: And pretending that I know is just fooling myself. So if I want to show up in my best relational way, I've got to get peaceful with, I don't get to know.

[00:14:52] Paul: Well, that's going to do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis.

[00:14:56] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig, and this has been Employing Differences.