[00:00:00] Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

[00:00:11] Paul: I'm Paul Tevis. 

[00:00:12] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig.

[00:00:14] Paul: Each episode, we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, what's the emotional risk? 

[00:00:22] Karen: So this is a thing that is easily overlooked and almost always present. And it happens in planning. It also happens when we're not planning and we're just sort of moving through life or work together, that we get into the cognitive space so heavily that we look at, well, is this a good idea? Could we try this or not? Is this a good idea to do?

[00:00:48] Karen:  Well, yeah, it totally makes sense, logically. And we don't stop to ask ourselves, what's the emotional risk? Where's the potential for hurt feelings, for disappointment, for frustration, for emotional energy resources to be used up? That kind of thing. And if we ignore those, there's a really good chance it'll come back to bite us later.

[00:00:12] Paul: Yeah, and it's actually most common that we ignore them when we're not the ones who are making an emotional risk in that situation. It's really easy. I see this happen all the time. And you point out planning is often a case where it occurs, right? As a group, we're getting together to figure out how we're going to do something and somebody is laying out, well, we could do this, we could try this, we could do this other thing. And they are seeing it in purely numeric, in purely cognitive, in purely non-emotional ways, right? I think we could risk this money. It would look like this. We could do that. 

[00:01:48] Paul: And they're able to see that and do those sort of calculations, that assessment, because they're not emotionally invested in it to a great degree. And usually what happens is at least one other person in the group is and experiences that very differently. And it's that difference in experience from an emotional level that I think often surprises us and catches us off guard when we think we're just going, well, yeah, this is it. It's simple, like with a simple decision, the math says we should do this and somebody else is going, but how could you possibly? 

[00:02:23] Karen: Yeah, and I think it's easy to not notice some of the peripheral emotional investment. So it's possible for there to be somebody, for example, that doesn't feel strongly about we should do this or we shouldn't do it. But if we do it, I'm going to be the one who does it. And if it doesn't go well or if we decide not to have go forward with it or something, I'm going to feel like a failure or the whole time I'm doing it. I'm going to be worried about whether I'm doing it well enough.

[00:02:50] Karen: Now, that's my own baggage, probably, but it also belongs to the group and affects the group and is part of the cost. Because if, you know, if the idea is I'm going to spend 10 hours doing whatever this thing is, that's going to cause me some emotional angst. And if you're just in the cognitive space going, "Oh, yeah, we can have you not do 10 hours worth of whatever else you would be doing." 

[00:03:13] Karen: Time out, because what's the emotional risk? And the emotional risk is I'm not good at anything else because I'm so wound up in my emotional stuff around this new thing. Or I way overspend even the time because I don't judge that well because I'm so emotionally invested. So there are a lot. I feel like there are a lot of different frames from which we bring our emotions that don't even they're peripheral enough that they're easy. Even if you're looking at emotions, you don't see them. 

[00:032:45] Paul: Well, and I think that where that comes from is that we all have different emotional weightings for different things. Right. So, for example, if we're talking about money that we're going to spend, right, and we're going to do this thing, we you and I probably have a different relationship to money. Right. And so the way we feel about money and the emotional risk associated with spending money on a thing is different for the two of us. Going back to your example from earlier, you know, as a hopefully recovering people pleaser. Right.

[00:04:12] Paul: If I'm going to do something for you, I'm going to there's a risk for me of you're not going to like it. You know, it might not turn out the way that you envisioned it. We're doing a bunch of house renovation projects right now. So I'm, I'm kind of living this space of going, you know, we're taking a risk here. And the risk is and for other people like who are project managing those sorts of things who don't have that same baggage that I do, that's not going to be the same risk for them. They're like, they're like, okay, you know, if it doesn't turn out perfectly, we can fix it as opposed to it didn't turn out the way that I hoped that it would. So you're not happy. So now I'm going to beat myself up about it. Like there are different weights that we put onto these different things because of our different experiences and different patterns. And those are a thing that we often don't see when we're we're starting to think about what are we going to do in this situation?

[00:05:05] Karen: So, so step one, as is so often the case here is curiosity. What, what is the emotional risk here? What might I not be seeing what might be going on for somebody else? What might I not be noticing about myself in this moment? That would be good for me to pay attention to. So where are folks's emotional things? What kind of emotional triggers might we hit? That's step one.

[00:05:28] Karen: And step two is what is always in the mix for us is vulnerability of to share about that, to talk about that. And if you can have those conversations that in and of itself can mitigate some of it. So some, some of it we can deal with the emotional risk by talking about it, by naming it, by resetting some expectations with each other. That kind of stuff may take care of it. And that's there are other episodes about that. So that's the thing we talk about a lot.

[00:05:57] Karen: What I want to make sure I name here is that even if we talk about it, well, even if we engage in it beautifully, even if we do all that good curiosity, vulnerability stuff that we suggest on this podcast. It's likely that there's still going to be an emotional cost. It's likely that there's going to be some emotional resource used. And this isn't, you know, I'm mad at you even or that kind of thing. I mean, it's not even necessarily a relationship debt, which we've talked about before, but just the energy that goes into this is a tricky emotional space for me. And I'm managing it, even if I'm managing, like, so I think it's just wise for us to think about capacity.

[00:06:39] Karen: I mean, in the same way, that you don't take on a big expense financially without consulting the budget and what, what resources are there and can we afford it? I think we want to look at an emotional budget. Are we also doing five other things that are stressful at this time? Or, you know, is this the moment that we want to take this on? But just to continue to acknowledge that even if we've done all the right things and we decide to move forward, that emotional cost is still going to be there. 

[00:07:09] Paul: And I think that really comes from the uncertainty of whether or not the thing we're afraid of is going to happen. So it's like if I'm, you know, I'm working on a challenging project at work. Right. And this is really kind of pushing the edges of my technical ability. Right. And, and, and my concern is that I'm going to screw something up and I'm going to look bad in front of my boss. Right. This is going to negatively impact my career or people are going to think they're going to question my competence. Like, do I belong as part of this company? Right. That's, that's the kind of thing that's going on right in your head when you're doing these things.

[00:07:41] Paul: And it's not that, you know, that's going to happen. You're afraid that's going to happen. And for me, it's the uncertainty about the bad result that leads to us having to manage it, that leads to that state of anxiety around this. Because if we knew it was going to happen like that, that's a whole different ballgame. But it's the uncertainty around it that, that we're all we're having to be vigilant about it. We're having to pay attention to it. We may not be super conscious of it. Right. It may be going on.

[00:08:08] Paul: And to your point about getting curious about ourselves, if that if we're having this emotional response to it and being vulnerable and able to disclose around it, I think is useful because it does mean we can notice when we're holding that tension, when we're holding that anxiety and kind of and kind of start to work with it. But, yeah, there's going to be an energetic cost to doing that, that just acknowledging it doesn't make it go away. You know, it's you know, I might know because and this also often comes up in the context of patterns that we've lived out previously. Right. I might cognitively know there is no way that you're actually going to hate the thing that I'm that I'm making for you. And at the end, you're not going to yell at me because I did it wrong. Like, there's no way. But that, that at the same time, I might act as though that, that's going to occur. 

[00:08:58] Paul: And so it's like, I know the stove isn't hot. And yet I still don't want to touch it. I still don't want to get near it because we have those patterns. Right. That we just we just live through like our the front part of our brain knows it's not true. But the deeper part of our nervous system still thinks it's going to happen. 

[00:09:13] Karen: So I think there's no completely escaping emotional risk. We want to be clear about that, but that it's useful to know that it's there, it's useful to be aware of it and to choose. You know, we can choose how far to head into that path. So I think overall, our theme today is first, ask the question, get curious about where we're going and what, what emotional risks are there and especially the peripheral kind of emotional things that might be there. And I see you have a thought. 

[00:09:44] Paul: Well, and I want to say that, like, this is the space where, again, talking about the idea that this is in the space between, like when we know that that's there, then we have the opportunity to help each other. Right. Because if I'm in that space of I'm needing to pay this cost, right, I'm needing to be vigilant, I'm worried this thing's going to happen. I'm in a space where I'm working with somebody. I'm in a relationship with somebody where I can disclose that I can now usefully ask for help. Right. And even if I'm not asking for help, the person who is there can be supporting me in some way because they know that this is a big thing for me. And so that's where it becomes really useful.

[00:10:20] Paul: It's not just that I know it and I can navigate this on my own. Now it's, you know, you and I are working on a project together, and I know that you're concerned about about how this makes you look, the competence aspect, the this, that and the other thing. If I know that and I start to see weird things that make me go, "Oh, I bet this is what's coming up for Karen." 

[00:10:39] Paul: Now I can work with that and I can offer support in ways that can help that can help build your energetic reserves. We talked about this cost. It's like, what can I do to offset some of that cost? What can I do to support you as you work through it? You know, which isn't me saying, well, you should just get over it, right? You shouldn't feel the way you feel, right? It's like knowing that you do. What can I do that will help you to actually work through it? And so I think that's the that's the end result of that curiosity. And that, you know, if I'm willing to be curious to go, you're having an emotional response to this, that wasn't expecting. I can get curious about where it's coming from. Then I can conceive of it. "Oh, this has to do with you have a different relationship to money than I do." And so you're worried about the financial risk here. 

[00:11:23] Paul: Great. Then as we're doing it, I can keep that in the back of my head and watch for opportunities to use that knowledge to be supportive in ways that will actually help us work through it. So it's not that I abandon you once I figured out what was going on.

[00:11:38] Karen: Yeah, I think that makes perfect sense. And so what we're saying is, having been curious, then pay attention to how can we mitigate that? How can we reduce that risk by supporting, by talking through, by aligning expectations, aligning values, deciding to go ahead or not go ahead, all that stuff and live with that awareness that some emotional strain is still likely to be there. We know that there are so many things we can do that help each other and help ourselves in that, mostly in the realm of curiosity, vulnerability and support. And it doesn't make it completely go away. 

[00:12:19] Paul: Yeah. Well, that's going to do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis

[00:12:22] Karen:  And I'm Karen Gimnick. And this has been Employing Differences.