[00:00:00] Paul: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals. 

[00:00:11] Karen: I'm Karen Gimnig. 

[00:00:12] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis.

[00:00:14] Karen: Each episode, we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, am I controlling? 

[00:00:23] Paul: If you've listened to the show for a while, you know that Karen and I often work in very different spaces. I work oftentimes in organizations. One of the things that shows up in most organizations is there's some sort of power differential between people. We've actually done a whole series back in episodes 105 through 107 of exploring the ways that some of these power differentials show up and things that we can do about them. And there is a dynamic that both Karen and I have been interested in and exploring a little recently that we want to get into today, which is the idea that in a working relationship, when there is some sort of power differential between two people.

[00:01:01] Paul: So for example, I work in an office. I have a boss. Or I am the boss. I have someone who works for me. There is a power differential there. And one of the things that can happen that shows up in that dynamic is if I'm the boss and I'm making a request of someone, I can show up in a way that is not at all how I intend to, which is that I can show up as controlling.

[00:01:26] Paul: And we want to explore a little bit what this is, how does it show up, how does it get in the way of the sort of space between that we often find is useful and what we can do about that. 

[00:01:39] Karen: And I'll just expand on the pattern that I see. And I see it show up in my theoretically non-hierarchical client spaces. And also when I work in the more corporate space and there is formal structural hierarchy, it's bigger often. But what I typically see is that the people who have the most power, whether it's structural power or some other kind, the people who have the most power are very often the people who are most adamant that they want a feeling of teamwork. They want that sense of connection.

[00:02:10] Karen: They want people to feel free to disagree with them. They want to hear what people are thinking. They want all the creativity and innovation and all that stuff that comes with a smaller power differential. And they don't want to be controlling. So just to be really clear, we are assuming that no one in this story wants to be a controlling boss or to use the structural power that they have in a way that would cause someone else to feel controlling or that would diminish somebody else's agency to speak or do their job or say things. It doesn't mean that that person who has authority doesn't want to make decisions and use their decision-making authority, but they pretty reliably don't want it to impact the relationships or have other people feel like they've been put in their place or be put down.

[00:02:58] Karen: And I'm beginning to think it's pretty rare that the other people don't feel put in their place and put down with some regularity in most of these relationships. So I think what we want to explore today is looking at this from the perspective of the person who holds some structural authority that is in a position of more power or power over potentially that doesn't want it to land that way. What do I do if I'm in that spot?

[00:03:26] Paul:  And I'll preface this by saying that we're trying not to make a judgment here about whether or not it is appropriate that there is that structural authority, because as we've discussed, hierarchy is an organizing principle, right? It's a way that we get things done, and it's often a very appropriate way to organize around certain types of tasks and certain types of works.

[00:03:45] Paul: And so assuming that it is appropriate that this imbalance exists, and again, going to your assumption that the person who has that authority is not intending to have that impact on the relational space, what's up with that? Where does this come from? And I think for me, one of the things, if I think about situations that I've been in where I've been on the receiving end of this request that feels like a demand, we've talked about the difference between those in the past, I think it's often when it feels like, yes, I recognize this person has a legitimate reason and decision authority around some aspect of this, but that they're overstepping it in some way, right? I feel like, yes, it's completely legitimate. You've asked me to finish this project by the end of the week. But the way that you're asking me to do it or the way you're peppering me with these questions or the things that you're doing, that feels like an overstep to me.

[00:04:45] Paul: And now it feels like you're encroaching on things that are more appropriate for me to decide. And I think the person on the other end doesn't have that feeling at all. They think it's completely legitimate for them to be asking those questions or asking for these things. 

[00:04:59] Paul: So there's, I think one of the places where it shows up, I think the only time I feel like I'm being controlled is when I have a disagreement with this other person about whether or not what they're doing is within their authority or within an effective range of things for them to be doing. So I think that's one of the things that shows up in the space between is that disagreement about, and to use the phrase that shows up in every workspace ever, whether or not you're micromanaging me, right? I'm asking you to do this thing. You're micromanaging me. 

[00:05:30] Paul: No, I'm not, I think is often the thing that comes up in this space. 

[00:05:34] Karen: Yeah. I think one sort of litmus test that managers can use is what would, what would these words that I'm saying, what would they sound like if it was my third-grade teacher saying them to me? Like, how would that land? And, and I say that a little bit jokingly, but actually the problem is that all of us has an inner third grader. 

[00:05:59] Karen: And so if anything about my phrasing or the language bears similarity, it doesn't have to be, it's the same. It doesn't have to be, I'm treating them like a third grader. If anything has that similarity in it, it's likely at an emotional level to trigger the employees in our third grader. 

[00:06:20] Karen: And so there's this very strong likelihood that what's going on for the receiver of the questions or the instructions or whatever is they're micromanaging me because I'm doing it wrong. They think I'm doing it wrong. They think I'm not good at my job. 

[00:06:39] Karen: They think I wasn't listening. Like I'm feeling accused or that kind of thing because that's so common. And we can have a different conversation about whether it's good that it's common in third grade, but it is so common in our childhood experiences and we don't outgrow those enough. 

[00:06:57] Karen: Like we, so, and so the question is how do we not have that effect? And the answer I think is that we have to be very different than that third-grade teacher, because the third-grade teacher's premise is, I know a bunch of stuff you don't, and I know what's best for you. And you doing what I tell you to is the thing that's best for you. It is a denial of autonomy. 

[00:07:21] Karen: It is a denial of, you know, you know what's right for you. And I would argue that even a third grader tends to know what's best for them and we should listen to them. Certainly a 30-year-old junior employee knows what's best for them, what they need, that kind of thing. And so how can we reframe it to be about what I actually want it to be about, which is maybe I'm, I am as the supervisor, as the manager, I'm just super nervous about this project. And I am going to crawl out of my skin if I don't have data about how you're meeting your milestones. It's nothing to do with, I think you don't, it's my insecurity. Could you help me out?

[00:08:02] Karen: Like the more I can get to where I'm actually coming from and then, then I can really unwrite that story of what I'm saying is about the person I'm talking to and instead own that it's about me.

[00:08:16] Paul: I think that last thing is really the, the unlock for me, right. Is realizing that when, when I'm on the, again, the lower authority end, when I'm on the receiving end of this demand request, micromanagement, whatever it is, you know, that it's very easy for the way that that's, that's delivered for the way that I'm receiving it to make it about me, you know, that my inner third grader comes out. 

[00:08:39] Paul: I, I hadn't, I hadn't heard that as a litmus test before. I really liked that. My, my litmus test has often been, if you're asking somebody to do something and you could, without changing the meaning really at all, add comma, you idiot to the end of it, you're probably micromanaging, but, but it's the same thing where if I'm receiving that, then I'm going, this is about me. This is about how they don't trust me. This is about how I'm not a good employee. This is about how, you know, and it's very easy for me to take it that way and to, to assert like, well, they, they ought to, right. 

[00:09:12] Paul: When I make it about the other person, I'm making it about how they ought to respect my, my boundaries. They ought to respect my authority, that I respect my knowledge, my, they ought to not treat me, you know, like I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing, right. It's about how I feel treated because it's become about me. 

[00:09:28] Paul: And the thing that you're pointing to that I, I really like is it's almost never about the other person. Like when I'm, when I'm doing that as a manager, I'm asking somebody to do something. The reason why I'm asking them to do that has almost nothing to do with them. 

It has almost everything to do with what I need out of this. Those needs may be, they may be internal and psychological, right. I, I need some reassurance about this because I'm nervous because my boss has asked, this is really critical. 

[00:09:53] Paul: It may be that there's a need that I haven't articulated about like, "Oh, there's this whole other part of the project that I haven't told you about that this thing is dependent on." That's why I'm asking for this by Thursday. Right. It's, there's a need that I haven't communicated in some way that doesn't make it that it's obvious about that. The reason why I'm asking for this, the reason why I'm doing the thing that's perceived as controlling is fulfilling some need. And I think what's fascinating is that when we reveal that, right, when we, when we don't fall into the trap of well, you know, you just need to do this because, right, because I said so, right, that's the, we can, we can double down on our authority. 

[00:10:32] Paul: But instead, when we can step into that place of disclosure of transparency of heavens forfend vulnerability of saying, look, I know that this is probably irritating to you. The reason why I'm asking for these status updates is because my boss has been asking about this thing. And if I don't have that information, I'm going to look bad in the meeting. 

[00:10:53] Paul: If I'm on the receiving end of somebody saying that to me, suddenly I'm much more willing to go. "Oh, okay. Like, I don't like this, but I can see why you're asking for it." We can probably make something work and it becomes off as much less controlling.

[00:11:07] Karen: Yeah. And, and I just really want to re-reiterate this piece about the intention, not to be controlling is not enough. The hierarchy and the shame cycle that is so built into the culture and, you know, different cultures with different triggers in different ways, but I don't believe that I've ever went into a workplace where that piece of our broader culture doesn't come into play. So you come in with, into a manager report relationship or any kind of power differential relationship, you come in with a built-in tendency for the person on the lower end of the power dynamic to feel criticized, shamed, blamed, put down all of that. They are predisposed to practically look for opportunities to see that. 

[00:12:00] Karen: I mean, it's unconscious. I don't think we all know that we're doing it, but the likelihood of things landing that way is so high that if you don't want them to, if you live in a hierarchical world and you don't want the controlling feeling that often comes with hierarchy, you actually have to go way out of your way, the other way to avoid it because it's already built into the system and you can't erase it other than through this really pretty constant vigilance of I'm going to own, my own stuff. I'm going to be transparent. 

[00:12:34] Karen: I'm going to, you know, be very cautious. Like I just have to kind of filter for a while and self-censor is a way to say it. Like I'm just going to really look for what are the things that I might be saying that could land this way. And hopefully, you can get some support from your reports, but you can't even count on it because they may not tell you. And the idea, well, I asked them, so they should tell me doesn't actually work. So, so just really leaning into this, if I don't want to land as controlling, I'm going to have to do some work and it's counter-cultural work really is what it is. 

[00:13:10] Karen: I have to resist and on right, the culture that we're in to say, this is different. I am different and really be different. And I'm not telling you that's easy. I do think it's worth it, but, but it's real work. 

[00:13:23] Paul: Yeah. And it is absolutely in my experience baked in. I had the experience of at one point, you know, having a peer in an organization who then as our group grew, became my manager, because there were now enough of us in the group that instead of the two of us reporting upwards to our boss, now this person reported upwards to our boss and the rest of the group reported to it, to my former peer and noticing how the interactions changed between us. I mean, the same words could get said to me and they would land in a different way. And again, I was not going out of my way to feel shamed or blamed or criticized or things like that, but I noticed that that was happening and it was the same person, but the dynamic was there.

[00:14:09] Paul: Like the, the power differential, the, all of the things that showed up, it's like, "Oh, now my manager is saying this thing to me. So these words have a different meaning, you know, than they did before. " You know, it was unconscious. It took us a while to unwind some of that stuff. And the way through it was sort of exactly what you're talking about, which is, you know, we have talked before back in episodes 105 through 107 about this power differential, about how it's often invisible to the person who's on the high side of it. And ultimately they're the ones who can most productively do the work to break it down. 

[00:14:23] Paul: Because absolutely in that situation, I could be my best self and show up and say, I really wonder what's the need that like, why is this person asking me for me these things? And it's lovely if I can do that, but the much more likely situation that's going to actually change things is the manager or supervisor or person on the high side of that power differential going, I need to disclose a lot more. I need to be clearer about why I'm asking for things, the needs that are going on here. That's much more likely to lead to success because it's honestly, it's a smaller risk.

[00:15:18] Paul: It can feel like a big risk when you're on that side, but that vulnerability is safer in a lot of ways when you're on that high side. And it's also just more likely to happen. And so while in theory change could happen from either side of the dynamic, when you're in this, it feels like, you know, controlling is happening. 

[00:15:38] Paul: It's much less likely that as the employee, I'm going to say, you know, I'm feeling kind of controlled right now. Could you give me a sense of what are the needs that are behind the requests you're asking of me? Much less likely that that's going to happen and much more likely that it's going to be effective and that the manager is going to say, you know, I'm getting the sense that I'm not showing up the way that I want to. You may be getting the sense that I'm trying to control you. 

[00:16:04] Paul: Let me be clear about why it is that I'm asking for these things and what's coming there. That seems like a much more likely conversation to happen and a conversation then that's much more likely to actually make a shift. 

[00:16:16] Karen: Yeah. So we're exploring today the question of, am I controlling? And we're really taking this from the frame of very often in the world today, we are in situations where there's structural hierarchy, where there is one person who has power over another and that person in a power position probably doesn't wish to be controlling or micromanaging. They probably want their, the people reporting to them or their more junior people to feel comfortable disagreeing. They probably want a sense of teamwork. 

[00:16:48] Karen: They want all of that to happen. And it very rarely actually goes that way. Very often the sense that the junior person has the sense that they're being controlled and has an emotional reaction to that, but the senior person may not even be aware of, but sees it in, you know, not volunteering for things or not taking initiative or not speaking up that kind of stuff. 

[00:17:10] Karen: And they want that to get fixed and they don't realize how they are contributing to the thing that they want to see changed. And so what we're saying is that if you really want the people reporting to you to feel like they have that autonomy and that they can participate in those ways, it's not enough to want it and say that you want it. You actually have to kind of reframe the way that you're speaking and the way that you're giving instructions and the way that you're asking for things so that you're transparent about where the need is coming from. 

[00:14:43] Karen: And that you do that vulnerable thing of owning, like, I'm asking for this because I need it. Not because I think you're incompetent, not because I think you don't know, not because I, you know, I'm not checking on you even other than I need information because I'm nervous, because my boss has asked for it, because wherever that real thing is getting in touch with, why do I feel the need to ask this question and then being transparent about that?

[00:18:09] Karen: So that it, so that the things that really are about me, so that the energy that I am bringing to it and the emotions and the needs and the background context, all of that, that I'm bringing to it, that's all about me, shows up as about me and doesn't get transferred to the person that I'm talking to. And that if we can do that, that the likelihood is we can rewrite some of this power differential so that it works in the ways we need it to for the very useful organizational elements of hierarchy, but it doesn't have the undesirable effects of putting down or limiting the people that are working for us. 

[00:18:47] Paul: Well, that's going to do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis.

[00:18:51] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig, and this has been Employing Differences.