Employing Differences, Episode 21: I made a mistake. What now?

Paul: 0:08

Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

Karen: 0:14

I'm Karen Gimnig

Paul: 0:16

and I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: 0:18

Each episode, we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is"I made a mistake. What now?"

Paul: 0:27

You mean people make mistakes? Yeah. So the thing is that when we're trying to do something new, when we're trying to be in relationship with other people, we're trying to work together, we're going to make mistakes. I think it's worth talking about what mistakes are in this context. I think what we really mean by it is things where the impact that we have is not what we intended and that caused some sort of harm to the other person, the other people involved– that impact was detrimental, harmful, painful in some way. F or me, that's really what the kind of mistake that we're talking about here is. Is that what you're thinking about Karen?

Karen: 1:16

Absolutely. Yeah. When that impact that we thought or didn't think about, but there turned out to be an unanticipated unintended impact on somebody else. I think we're at the point of asking the question, we've already done the very first thing, which is to notice, and the second thing, which is to say out loud, at least to yourself,"I made a mistake." I think that already is a huge step beyond what often happens, where we don't even tell ourselves. We cover it up, we blame it on somebody else, we wrap some other story around it that it's anything except a mistake that I made, something that I own some responsibility for what– let's go anywhere but there–can happen. So if we're at the stage of asking the question, then congratulations. The first two steps are well accomplished. I noticed it, and I– at least to myself– said, I made a mistake and got curious about"What now?"

Paul: 2:23

In some ways the"what now?" is"shut up." Because very often when we get to that point of saying,"I made a mistake," we then try to explain and to rationalize and to downplay our own part in it. That actually undercuts the hard work we've just done of recognizing and acknowledging. I have noticed that when harm has been done to the relationship to the working of group, the most important thing to do if you want to repair that is to own as much of that and take as much responsibility for that as you can, even while recognizing that it's not a hundred percent. It's very rare that you did a thing that had no influence or anything else by someone else or the system or things like that. There's always pieces of that, where you were influenced by something else. And the degree to which you can own your part of it is the degree to which other people are willing to reengage with you.

Karen: 3:43

I think that's so true. And I think our societal norm– I think sometimes of the example of if I step on your foot and my first thing is,"I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to." And what I just said is"This is all about me." I am so sorry. I didn't mean to, my need is for you to tell me that it's okay, that I am not in trouble. I need you to tell me that I'm okay, when actually what's needed in this situation, is something more like,"Oh, I bet that really hurts. What do you need from me? Should I go get you some ice? Can I, you know, what can I do to help while you're in need?" And yeah, I'm really sorry. I did it. And I did it. I know I did it and it hurts, but let's make it more about you than about protecting me. It's that shift from self protection to caretaking of other, that's really important.

Paul: 4:45

Because that's the thing that actually repairs the relationship: When you actually demonstrate by your words and actions that you actually care for the other person. That you actually want– that you have their needs in mind. When you shift it all to you, it calls that into doubt. It doubles down on the"Well, does this person actually care?" Like they say, they didn't want to have this impact, but everything they're doing is making it about them.

Karen: 5:19

Yeah. So I think just acknowledging this is the harm– because frankly in our culture, we are not trained to say,"You hurt me and I'm feeling hurt." I need it to be said, but if I'm on the receiving end of this, the odds that I'm going to say it myself are fairly slim, unless I'm just explosive because there is that cultural norm in there. So if you know that you made a mistake that hurt me, one of the most healing things you can do is say to me,"I bet that really hurt you. And I can imagine that it had this and this and this other impact that maybe I can't even see.""I bet that totally stressed you out that I didn't show up for that meeting, and it really left you on the hook, and those were all really terrible things." So acknowledging both the actuality–"I did this thing, this is the impact it had"– and this is why that impact mattered. This is how important that impact was to you.

Paul: 6:24

One of the things I'll add to that is that I think it can be important to be a little humble about how much we really understand the other person. We make assumptions about how it might have impacted them. I have found that some of the most effective repairs in these sorts of moments have been when the other person has actually asked me what the impact was on me. They have some sense that it was bad. Like,"Oh, it seems to me you're kind of uncomfortable about this," or"I know that there's something going wrong." And then when they actually say,"I want to understand more about that, are you willing to share what the impact of that really was?"– not assuming that we know, but actually getting curious about what's happening with the other person or the other people can be really powerful. It also means that when, if I feel like you understand what the impact really was on me, then what you do about it has much more meaning to me. It really does reassure me that this is not about making you feel better. This is about you expressing concern and making me feel better when my foot has been trod upon.

Karen: 7:40

Yeah. I love the way you phrased that:"Would you be willing to share? And that's not just words. It actually matters because you're asking someone to be vulnerable enough to sort of expose their woundedness– to expose this is the thing that hurt me, and that is a vulnerable thing. And sometimes they're going to say no. Sometimes it really is the case that all of your best intentions, doing all the things we're recommending here, just drag them further into someplace they don't want to go and make the harm more. So I love that frame of,"Would you be willing to share with me?" That has to come with"and they might say no, and that has to be totally fine." As uncomfortable as I am that I didn't get to repair, or I didn't get to do something to make it up, or I didn't get to try and fix it, that's my discomfort. And if that's the thing that that person wants most or that they're most comfortable with, then what I do to repair this i s live with my own discomfort that I didn't get to repair i t.

Paul: 8:43

Yes. Where a lot of my learning around this comes from is really in equity work. And recognizing that one of the places that I am most likely to make a mistake in saying something is where I say something that I don't realize is sexist, racist– pick your favorite avenue of discrimination and microaggression there. That is where it is incredibly important for me not to center myself in that discussion and also to not rely on the other person to educate me. That's where my sensitivity around"Would you be willing to help me to understand that?"– because the person may be in a place where they've had it, they're done. You are the 15th person this week who has said that thing, and they're just done and it is not their place to educate you about that thing. That's where my willingness to sit with"I screwed this up and I'm not going to get a chance to really work through my own stuff about it"– I've got to expand my tolerance for that. Um, but by doing that, that really demonstrates that it isn't about me, that it is about the other person and it is about actually wanting to address the harm that's been done.

Karen: 10:09

Yeah. And so I think once you've sort of been that where you've explored what the harm is, and you've gotten a full awareness of what the harm, what the impact was, then the next piece is to offer a repair. Can I make this up to you?"You know, when I trod on your foot, you were on your way to go make some copies. Can I go make those copies for you so you can now rest your foot?" Or to have a suggestion or to request a suggestion."I know I just messed up your day. Can I do something to help un-mess up your day? Is there a way that I can help?" And it needs to be authentic. If you're asking for that repair option, you need to be prepared to kind of– there's a bit of a blank check going on there.

Paul: 10:56

Yeah, there's two layers at which you're really trying to make amends here. One of them is you're actually trying to address whatever the sort of task-oriented, the thing that you interrupted or that you screwed up– the result that the person was hoping for or the harm that they were trying to avoid. You need to address that. And that's part of what the making that ask about"What might I do in order to make amends for this?" or"How can we address that piece?" And by doing that, you're also addressing the relational level. You're addressing the damage to the connection. Both are important, and the way that we ask about, or we offer what we might do to address the harm done. Because there's really two levels. There's the immediate harm. And then there's the relational harm. There's the thing in the moment. And there's what it means for our ongoing relationship. And you've got to navigate both at the same time.

Karen: 12:00

I think that's true. And I think the last piece I want to really add to this is that this is one of the long list of pieces of advice I give to groups, to which I say,"This is excellent applied to oneself." It does not work if you try to apply it to someone else or to say,"You hurt me, therefore you should go through these steps and you should..." That rarely goes well. I think there is a point at which sometimes the person who is receiving the apology or the amends or the relationship fix that person may say,"I also did a thing that contributed to this and I'm offering to have the reverse conversation." And that's lovely when it comes from that person who's wanting to offer their side. I would say that everything we set up to this point will not work well. If you do all of those things exactly the way that we send them and said,"Now it's your turn to take your responsibility for it." You just erased it.

Paul: 13:09

Yes. I had the experience once of I had a very close working relationship with someone who– things went badly, let's say. Let's say that. About two years later, we were both kind of able to to say– it was basically the point where this person apologized to me for a thing that had happened, and I realized I didn't need the apology anymore. I'd actually moved beyond. There was a period of time where absolutely that was the thing that I wanted most. I wanted this person to admit that they've made a mistake, that it was their fault, and to say,"I'm sorry, and I never s hould h ave done that, and I'm a horrible person." I didn't actually need h im to say the last part. But at the point where we had the conversation and he said,"I made a mistake" and he k ind o f went through this whole set of things without me prompting, it seemed incredibly natural for me at that point to go,"You know, what I did that made that situation worse was..." And we both came away with with a much deeper appreciation for each other and a very strongly repaired relationship. So I think when you can recognize when someone is apologizing or admitting a mistake to you and going through this process, when you can recognize that maybe there was a part in that, that you had as well, if you can go through that process– it is not required at all but if you're able to do that, you're at a spot where you can, I think that can really be a thing that the relationship can be strengthened b y rather than just completely w eakened.

Karen: 14:58

The one cautionary note I want to give about this is it doesn't apply to abuse relationships.

Paul: 15:03

Nope.

Karen: 15:04

We're, we're talking about the sort of normal working relationship, normal community relationship type space where we're on relatively equal footing. And we can talk well with each other. This sort of cycle that we're talking about, isn't going to be a way to address a repeated ongoing abuse situation, particularly where there's a strong power differential. That's a whole other conversation. Sometimes people hear this and they think,"Oh, well, you know, I've been abused, but if I just own my part of it to the abuser..." That's not what we're talking about here.

Paul: 15:39

No. And I think the other part, though, we didn't get to on this is that last piece of like when you've made a mistake. After shifting the focus to the other person and coming to understand and making amends, in the longer term, changing your behavior, that is the thing to do. If you notice that"I'm always making this mistake, I'm having to have this conversation multiple times with this person or with many different people," the thing to do is figure out how you can stop doing that. What is the shift that you can make in your own behavior over time? What is it that you're seeing? What is coming up for you? And then that's the ultimate way of repairing the relationship. It's when you stop doing that thing.

Karen: 16:31

And that sounds to me like another episode."What do we do when we're stuck in a repeating pattern?" S o to wrap us up for this one, I think what we're saying is when you've made a mistake, notice, name it for yourself, name it for that other person, acknowledging your impact and what the impact was and what the sort of ongoing i mpacts were. Certainly there's a place there to state your regret, your apology, but making it very much about them and in a caretaking way, that's concerned for them and then suggest or request a suggestion for a repair and then do that thing and actually do change t he behavior.

Paul: 17:18

We make it sound so simple. It's one of those things that I like to say is simple and not easy.

Karen: 17:27

Absolutely. I think that's going to do it for us today until next time. I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul: 17:33

And I'm Paul Tevis, and this has been Employing Differences.