Paul: 0:08

Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

Karen: 0:15

I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul: 0:16

And I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: 0:18

Each episode, we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, "Is this collaboration?"

Paul: 0:28

So given that this is a show about exploring the collaborative space between individuals, the answer is often going to be yes. I think one of the things that's interesting about collaboration and we've talked a lot before about what that means is that once you start to do it, once you start to get good at it because there's a set of skills and there's a set of mindsets and approaches that you develop as part of doing it that makes collaboration work once you start to build and develop those, there's a lot of possibility for things to be collaborative that didn't seem like they were before.

Karen: 1:12

So part of how this topic came up is that I just came out of one of those experiences of a space that I went into. Really, I was invited into a caretaker role. A friend of mine was having a pretty nasty surgery, something the surgeons describe as just this side of torture. And she asked me to come be her caretaker, particularly through the pain management post surgery, which doesn't sound very collaborative on the nature of it. You know, she's gonna be kind of loopy and out of it, and I'm giving, giving, giving, that's the roles we've, we've accepted. And honestly, I had visions of spending a lot of time watching her sleep and things like that, which wasn't what happened, actually. She's a close friend. We've done a number of things before that were collaborative in nature. A few days in someone from the outside world said something to me about, you know, what you're doing is such selfless work. And I thought, doesn't feel like it. Doesn't feel selfless at all. And I just sort of kept pondering that and realizing it feels connected, it feels engaged. And what I finally realized it felt was collaborative. That this friend and I have done collaborative projects a lot before. And that's how we did this one. We showed up together with a shared goal. We had both invested in the goal of getting her through this, and managing the pain meds and all those things. There were pieces I could do. I could go out and buy groceries. I could hang out and remind her things were going to be okay. I could advocate with the nurses and the doctors and track the pain meds, most of which were things she couldn't do. And there were things she could do. She could name how she felt and, you know, gather her resources and put herself into things, which she did incredibly well. And there were the things that we did together the times we sat down and said, "How is this working?" And we spent a lot of time through that week as we had time to talk, thinking about, "Why does this working for us?" And particularly in comparison to some of the stories we had of others who'd had the surgery. What was it that worked? Because it did work, and she had a really successful recovery. And we realized it's all the same things that that Paul and I you and I have been talking about all these weeks of these episodes. We each were able to name our needs. She got more practice with that than I did, because she was significantly needier than I was in that setting. But there were times that I just needed a nap, or I needed to go get dinner. Sometimes even if I wasn't the one naming that she was. She was in that support role. We were able to just be really authentic with each other. So you know, as tempted as she would be to just say, "I'm okay, and it's not hurting that bad." That wouldn't have worked. She had to show up authentically and needy, which wasn't any easier for her than it would have been for me in that place. But she did it. And we were able to say what didn't work without blame. So we could just say to each other, "Yeah, let's not do that thing again." Or "Yes, do more of that." And check in. "Hey, you know, I was doing this thing was that working for you? When I was you know, I was continuing to massage your feet as you were really not very responsive because you were in so much pain." And she was like, "Yeah, didn't you just hear my thoughts saying yes, keep doing that." We had that check in afterwards, so the feedback going. So so many elements of collaboration and realizing that in a space that was definitely not work, that in some ways was theoretically not even a shared goal it was a goal that was all about her and her well being but because we approached it collaboratively and had those collaborative skills, it was this really successful experience, but also just rich. It was just rewarding and engaging and lovely and kind of hard to walk away from, honestly.

Paul: 5:24

Yeah. There's two things I want to point to in that. One is this idea of this shared goal. A shared goal doesn't have to be about or solely focused on on more than one person. You both had the goal of getting through this. You had that. When we have shared goals with people, we each get something different out of the achievement of that goal. It's very rare in a collaboration that we both get the same thing out of the achievement of the goal. We each get our own pieces out of it. But the other thing you said that is rattling around with me is the kind of comment that kicked it off for you, which is this idea of being selfless. And I think that collaboration is extremely "self-full." Collaboration is where we each get to show up fully. And we aren't as concerned about showing up fully, because of the framework we have to work in, because we know that when we can show up and say what it is we need and what we're thinking and what we're feeling, when we're when we're not worried about blame and resentment and things like that, we get to show up. We get to be our full selves. And so it's "self-full" rather than selfless. I hadn't thought about it until you sort of said that. You're like, "It's not selfless, it's collaborative." And I think that's one of the things that I'm hearing in your story is how both of you really got to be there and be fully a part of it. We've talked about mutuality being important in collaboration before but I don't know that we've really talked about that idea of really being fully in it as one of the things that really makes collaboration work, but also as a sign that it's happening. Like that's one of those things that helps to tell us that this is collaboration.

Karen: 7:22

Yeah, I think there's a myth that collaboration means I set aside my own needs, my own individual, anything that's just me by set. That I aside in favor of what's good for the group. And what's missing from that myth is that I am a piece of the group. And so you can't care for the group and say, "Yeah, but except that part of the group isn't important." "We're going to care for the body, but the foot just gets neglected. We can beat that to a pulp, we don't care." We can't do that. So if I'm a member of the group, or part of the collaboration, part of the collaborative, caring for me is part of what's necessary for the collaborative goal to be successful.

Paul: 8:10

And the thing that is often that is difficult for many of us, myself included is also letting the rest of the group care for us. Because that's part of the collaboration too. And I think that's where we can fall into that trap of feeling like it has to be selfless, where it's like, "I have to set aside my own needs, I can't bring them." It's not not just that I can't take care of them for myself, but I can't let anybody else take care of them because I'm being collaborative. It's actually the opposite. Being able to trust that I can bring those things up, and we will find a way to actually work with them.

Karen: 8:52

Yeah. And I think that was in my story between the two of us, but it also existed in a way she had really invited a broad network to this. She had done a GoFundMe thing, and people have been incredibly generous. So I had a debit card, and it was like, "She needs it, go buy it." Neither one of us was thinking money for two weeks. We ate what we wanted to eat. If it felt good, if it seemed like it nurtured her brain that was reorganizing itself, whatever it was, we just did it. And so there was this, like, really accepting the care and nurture. And for me, though, there was an oddness about that. Money had been given to her and her family, and there was this moment early on, she said, "No, you're in this. You have to be functioning, too." And so that willingness and realizing, okay,"I'm four hours sleep, I just got to feed myself." I can't be thinking about it. That's part of this is accepting that care and nurture for me, for her, for all of it.

Paul: 9:57

Well, and that's the flip side. That's the like, "Oh, I'm being selfish." It's those two things that can interfere with our ability to be fully in collaboration. I think one of things you're pointing to, and that I'm thinking through in this conversation is recognizing that truly being collaborative is about being able to attend to self, and also attend to the collective, to the group. To be able to hold both of those things, not in opposition to each other, but at the same time. To be able to, as you say, see that I am a part of this larger thing. I am both separate and apart, and I need to actually work with both of those. And not subsume my own needs and my own desires, my own thoughts so much either out of a feeling of shame because I'm being selfish or of obligation because I need to attend to the group. So it's that really interesting space of tracking how is "me "showing up in "we?"

Karen: 11:07

Yeah, and I will say she and I talked a lot about that. I think the feedback loop of really naming like, "It's hard for me to show up as needy." For me, it's hard to initiate touch. I'm not real good at that. So I negotiated that with her in advance. I get that touch helps with pain and if I'm helping with pain, I ought to be able to do that. But to talk about where we were uncomfortable, where we knew we were kind of stepping outside of comfort zones, where we were challenging ourselves and name that with each other, I think was one of the things that really helped that collaborative space work.

Paul: 11:44

Yeah. And it's that the conversations that I sometimes have with folks about "What would help me help you is..." I know what it is that you need. I also know how that may be a challenge for me. And I know how we can work together for me to overcome that challenge. That's another really strong sign that good collaboration is happening. When you're able to say like,"I'm not just going to be able to do that, I'm going to need some help from you to be able to do the thing that's going to be useful for the collective for for you."

Karen: 12:20

Yeah, and I think a theme that goes with that is, "This is the thing that I would like to grow in me." In this space of helping you or in the space of collaborating with you and doing this thing together, there is growth potential for me, and it's gonna be clunky, but I'm going to be grateful for it. By pulling me out of my comfort zone, you are helping me achieve a growth that I know is something I want, that I know will be fruitful for me. And that's layers of consciousness in but it's really powerful stays.

Paul: 12:53

So that's I think, kind of the theme of what we've been talking about here today is that, collaboration is deep. There's the deeper in you get, the more you realize is there. I think collaboration has the possibility to surprise us, to show up in spots where we weren't expecting it to, because as you get deeper into the practice of collaboration as it becomes more natural and more habitual to you you're able to sink into it in spaces that you wouldn't have expected to be able to do. We really also kind of talked about how the concept of self shows up in collaboration and how grappling with it and if you don't see ourself as part of the grou and part of the coll ctive, then you can have trou le collaborating. And about how hen we're really collaborating ell together, we're articula ing things that we need and th ngs that we think and things tha we feel, and also things th t are going to help us grow. nd help us not just to achiev this goal that we have togeth r but that we're going to carry ith us beyond this particular collaboration. When we get to hat level of collaboration, hat goes beyond the sort of "g eat we're getting something use ul done together." We're actual y growing as people. We're actua ly becoming a more powerful an tapping into things inside of us that we didn't necessari y have access to or know were here before. So it is really kin of a magical space.

Karen: 14:29

I think that's gonna do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul: 14:34

I'm Paul Tevis. And this has been Employing Differences