Karen: 0:08

Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

Paul: 0:15

I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: 0:17

And I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul: 0:19

Each episode we start with a question and we see where it takes us. This week's question is, "Am I prepared for this tough conversation?"

Karen: 0:29

We have said in many episodes in different ways about the importance of giving feedback, and even some of how to go about that. And what I've been thinking about this week, and we've just been talking about is the place where, okay, I know I should, like, I've got things that I'm thinking about, I'm not happy with this other person, or there's things not working for me, or there's something I think the team needs to do differently. And I'm totally not comfortable with that. And I don't know how I would say it. And I'm pretty sure if I say the thing, it's just going to explode. And, yeah, maybe I've watched those earlier episodes. And I get how I should say this, but it's not in my brain to say it that way. What do I do when I have the sense that "Okay, there is some feedback I probably should give here, but it's a tougher conversation that I'm up for yet." What do I do then, Paul?

Paul: 1:25

Yeah. So I get a lot of people who ask, "What do I do about this tough conversation? I need to have this tough conversation with somebody." And the question I always ask is,"What makes this tough for you?" Because to my mind there is no such thing as a tough conversation. There may be a conversation that is tough for you to have. So there's a piece of figuring out, what is it about it, that scares you that, that is difficult for you? Because different people can approach the same kind of conversation with the same topics, and have a completely different approach and reaction to it. So the first place that I go to to ask, "Am I prepared for this conversation?" is going,"What is it about this conversation that makes it tough for me to have?" And and to go inside and go, "Oh, that's where it is. That's the thing I'm worried about that's going to happen? This is the thing that it reminds me of." What is the story I'm telling myself about how this could go wrong. And that's kind of the first place that I recommend people start in terms of preparing.

Karen: 2:36

Yeah, and I just want to throw in here that that may not be a me-and-myself conversation. It's probably a me-and-myself-and-a-pen-and-paper or a me-and-myself-and-a-buddy or me-and-myself-and-a-coach. Somebody that or some kind of interface where we get some help delving deeper into what's going on with us. Because the reason we don't know yet is because it's guarded. There's some defensiveness around that that we're holding. And we may need some help of some sort of process it could be meditation, it could be a walk on the beach, it could be a lot of things but we probably are going to need some support to really find that in ourselves.

Paul: 3:20

Yeah, definitely. It is the kind of thing where once you start to take the frame and recognize, "Oh, there must be something about this, that makes it tough for me, I should go looking for it," sometimes that helps you find it, and sometimes it just helps you go, "I need something else to help me find it." But yeah, like going and looking for it, recognizing what's guarded about it, and doing that is one thing. I sometimes distinguish, and this is something I picked up from one of my teachers, Mary Beth O'Neill, she talks about planning and preparing. So planning is, these are the things that I need to say, these are the words that I want to use, this is what I want to happen. This is the actions that I plan on taking. And that's that's planning. That's cognitive work. And that's where all of our skills about the structure we can use to give feedback and things like that come in. And then there's preparing. Preparing is the emotional work of going, "What do I think is going to come up in me in the moment when I try to execute that plan?" And how do I think the other person is going to respond, and how am I going to respond to that response? And that's the part that even a roleplay through doesn't necessarily get you. You can practice the plan parts of it. But really getting into that emotional preparation, I think requires a different set of techniques. And I think you actually have a couple for things like that. So I'm going to toss it back over to you.

Karen: 4:52

Yeah, some of it is really being willing to go into that "What's going on for me with this?" So recognizing that there is a point of this that is about, "What am I bringing to this?" Because usually, if I want to give feedback, it's because I know really well what I want them to do differently. I don't like what they are doing. And if they would change their behavior, that would just solve everything for me. And I want to say that's probably true, that if they would just change their behavior, that would solve everything for you. The problem is that it wouldn't put you in a collaborative space with them. And they're probably not going to do it. And that's not the only solution. Them changing their behavior is probably not the only way around this and asking them to or even demanding that they do is unlikely to make that just happen. So that piece of "Okay, so what I'm arriving with is my awareness of what they're doing wrong, in my opinion," that kind of thing. What am I bringing to this? What am I contributing to this? So that curiosity word that shows up in every episode somewhere is here. What's my piece of this. Getting curious about that. And then just being willing to really talk about it and sit with it. I think the the mirroring skill that I talk

about a lot: 6:10

I say what I think and someone that just will sit back and repeat back to me what I've just said. Let that soak in. Take it in. And then what is the next piece? So when I hear my own words back, what does that bring up for me? So I'm kind of having a conversation with myself, through the vehicle of someone else who's willing to be that mirror for me. It is a really valuable space.

Paul: 6:38

One of the things that I think is valuable is to think about how do we not want to show up in that conversation. And I think oftentimes when we feel a conversation is going to be tough, we recognize that there's possibility that we are going to be angry, be frustrated, be irritated; that we're going to bring some particular negative energy, some emotional state to this conversation, and that's not going to make it go well. I actually think it's useful to recognize that and then go, "If that's not what I want to bring, what do I want to bring? What is the emotional energy that I want to bring to this?" In some of the work that I do, we sometimes talk about this idea of Meta-skills. A Meta-skill is a belief or a philosophy or an energetic stance that I can use any of my skills from. It's a come-from. And so coming from a place of curiosity, for example, or coming from a place of connection, or coming from a place of heart or courage. That changes how the conversation goes. When we show up in a different way, even if we're using the same words, it's going to have a different result. And so part of preparing for a tough conversation for me, is about asking, "What is the energy that I want to bring to this? What emotional state do I want to bring to this?" Which is often first recognizing what I don't want to bring and then going, what do I think would be more useful? What do I think brings a better chance for this conversation to go the way that I hope that it will, and to foster the relationship in a way that I hope that it will. So coming from a place of blame? Probably not all that useful. And coming from a place of curiosity, of mutual exploration of connection, of heart like that I could ask the same questions or say the same things from those two different spaces, and we're going to get a very different result.

Karen: 8:39

I think "What's useful?" is a great question. I think the other question is, "Who do I want to be?" Who at my core? What is that self?" There's this whole internal family systems kind of approach that I think is fascinating, where we talk about our different parts. And there's probably one part of us that's showing up in our anger or frustration. If we can get to,"Okay, so that's a part, and that part has a reason that they're doing that thing." But the self, of who we actually want to be, and if we can get in touch with that part of self that's "Who do I want to be in this conversation?" And if I want to be compassionate, and I want to be caring, I want to be curious, and I want to be all those things. That it's not even just, "Well, I have to put on my compassionate mask so that they can hear me." That can bring a lot of resentment to it. But if I can get to who I want to be and even if I'm not quite sure I am that person yet, but how do I want to show up in the world? How do I want to be engaging with people? What's going to feel good at the end that I come out and feel good about what I did and who I was in that what does that look like? I think it's is it useful place to go. What will be useful in this situation can sometimes push us into that, "I have to put it on, I have to be the better person I have to control myself when they don't do it." You can get into this resentment cycle there. So watch out for that, and and I think the antidote to that is just getting into the "Who do I want to be?"

Paul: 10:25

One thing I'll add to that is from the neuroscience end of things. One of the things that more recent neuroscience studies have shown is human brains really do have a negativity bias. It's something like five times as many networks in our brains are dedicated to threat detection, as they are to reward detection. It makes sense, from an evolutionary standpoint, you want to be really good at spotting things that could get you. And if you accidentally spot something that's good for you and think that it's something that could get you and you overlook it? That's not as big a deal as if you fail the other direction. So the negativity bias makes sense. But also, we have to recognize how that shows up in social spaces and in conversation. And so one of things that can be really useful in preparing for a tough conversation you're already going into a negative space, what's the things that you can do to actually try to counteract some of that? So asking yourself things like, "What do I really appreciate about this person?" Not just focusing on the one thing you wish they would stop doing or the way that they would change. Why do I think it is worth it for me to have this conversation with this person? What do I value about my relationship with them? What do I appreciate about them? Reminding yourself of the positive aspects of it so that the current negative issue plus our negativity bias doesn't just totally overshadow that. Because that's another thing that I think can help us tap into who we want to be in that moment and in that space?

Karen: 12:09

Yeah. And if you want to make that really rich and deep, you can ask yourself, "That thing that's driving me crazy about them? What's really good about that thing? What do I appreciate about that particular thing?" You know, this person just talks and talks and talks and meetings and comes up with a lot of good ideas. Wait, that thing that they do has a benefit. Because it almost always is that mixed bag. It is that aspect of them that is not working in the system at least for you they wouldn't be doing it if it didn't have value. And odds are it does. I mean, certainly it has value to them, or they wouldn't be doing it. But odds are, it also has value to the to the team and to the system. So if you can get really tapped into that you've got a much better shot at compassion.

Paul: 13:00

Yeah, we've covered a lot of ground here today. And these are things that we've touched on in a number of previous episodes. But I think this kind of brings a lot of it together in a really useful way.

Karen: 13:12

I want to bring in one more piece. The one more piece I want to make sure that we touch on here, if I'm asking myself

questions: 13:19

"Where is my rigidity? What am I rigid about? What is the thing that I am holding on to as though it's in concrete? And is it really?" And sometimes that rigid thing is a boundary that I need to hold that's necessary for some reason, but an awful lot of the time it's not. And it may be a moral judgment on that other person. It may be a "this is just the way it is." But looking to self with, "Where is my rigidity? And is that rigidity serving me? The team? The relationship, the collaboration?"

Paul: 13:56

Yeah, that gets a little bit to what would our range of acceptable outcomes or solutions or changes look like? Because we will go in knowing that we would like this thing to change. And we may have a very clear idea of what we would like it to change to. But what is the set of things that would be acceptable? What is the range? Where is there flexibility about it? Because that's also where the collaboration piece comes in. Where if we can collaboratively explore what a change might look like, and what support might be needed to create that, that is also really useful. And if you haven't thought about that ahead of time if you just got your I need you to stop doing this and do this instead, and you're inflexible on that that's likely not to go well. So that is another really great piece of preparation. Not just where do I want to come from, and how do I want to show up, and what do I want to change, but what are the set of things that I can be flexible about in terms of possible solutions, possible outcomes?

Karen: 14:59

Yeah, Okay, now I'll let you wrap this up.

Paul: 15:04

So what we really explored here is those things right? There's there's a degree of cognitive planning that I can do around what skills that I want to use, how do I want to show up? What are the things that I want to think about? But also, how am I feeling about this? What's the story I'm telling myself about what's going on in this situation? What is it that makes this conversation a tough one for me to have? Finding a thinking partner to maybe help you work through some of those things or doing some journaling doing some degree of exploration to uncover what is it that makes this conversation tougher, you can also then uncover, how do you not want to show up? What is the energy you don't want to bring to this conversation? And so what do you want to bring? And how can you bring that really authentically? Not as a performative sort of piece, but in a real way, how can you bring the emotion and the energy that you want? Both because it will be useful in terms of ideally getting a better outcome, but also, because it allows you to be more of the person that you actually want to be. And I think that's one of the places of tough conversations where we sometimes feel like, this is gonna make me be someone that I don't want to. And so tapping into that. Thinking about what our ranges of possible outcomes you've got here, and really tapping into what you appreciate about the person, about the relationship, even about the annoying thing that they're doing you wish that they weren't, and that you want to talk about that. That's all stuff that is hard to do, particularly at first. The more you do it, it's a muscle, you get practiced at it. And when you do that, that gives you a much better chance of both getting an outcome that works for you and that works for the other person when you go in to have a tough conversation.

Karen: 16:56

I think that's gonna do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul: 17:01

And I'm Paul Tevis. And this has been Employing Differences.