Paul: 0:08

Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

Karen: 0:15

I'm Karen Gimnig.

Paul: 0:16

And I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: 0:19

Each episode, we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, "Is this a conversation I should have?"

Paul: 0:29

I have noticed a pattern that shows up in me and I suspect this may be a pattern that shows up in other people, too where I find myself thinking, "I really need to talk to this person about this thing, because there's something important here." And then I find myself thinking, "Here are all the ways that that could go badly." And I get caught. And I will often find reasons to avoid having the conversation. Sometimes having to force myself into this, and I realized now, Karen and I have talked a little bit about this not all conversations need to be had. That is useful information that is popping up there. And so one of our favorite words, discernment, shows up here and thinking about, "Is this a conversation that I should have or not?" Is the struggle that I'm having with it actually indicative of the fact that I shouldn't? Or is it a thing that I should use to help plan and prepare for a tough conversation which is a topic we've talked before about. When we notice we're gonna have a tough conversation, how do we get to the point where we're ready to have it? But I think here, we're at a step before that, of just kind of asking, How do we know when we should have it?

Karen: 1:42

Yeah. And I think we've generally said lean into yes. We probably want to be in the relational space. Yes, we should talk about it. And so today, we're going to talk about when you might not want to. What are the times that really that caution voice you want to be listening to? And I think the first step is to ask ourselves, what is the objective that I would have? If I'm having this conversation, what am I hoping will come out of it? And this actually can be generalized to doing other things, too. If I do this thing, what is it that I'm hoping will come out of it? And sometimes we go into those hard conversations saying, "I want to have this conversation with someone because I want to convince them to do a thing my way." And the point of the conversation is that they're going to do it my way, they're going to approve of me, they're going to tell me what I want to hear that, that the whole goal of me doing it is to get something from them that I've never gotten before. And I'm really cautious of that objective. I think of when I had just published my book that I co authored with Yana and thought about sending it to my father with whom there's a pretty rocky relationship and came to the conclusion, "Not until I don't care what his response is." But if I'm sending to him so that my daddy will approve of me, which you know, well into my 40s is gosh darn-it still a thing. I've got to do my own work. And so there is a really go back and do the self work, ask the hard questions, talk it through with the people you talk things through with. Actually, when I think about having this conversation or doing this thing, what is the thing I'm hoping to get out of it? Get really clear. And there may be more than one thing. But often, there is kind of one primary thing, and it may not be the one we're willing to tell ourselves at first.

Paul: 3:50

I find that is often the case. And I remember a conversation that I had a while back with a friend of mine about a hard conversation I was thinking about having and she kind of walked me through this whole thing and helped me realize that what I was hoping would happen was basically that the other person would admit that they were wrong. And I was like, "Hmm, maybe... maybe that's not a good conversation that I want to have. Because thinking about if I achieved that objective, what would that do? What would happen as a result of it? I might feel a little better, a little more self righteous. "Hah, I was right." But what is that going to do to the working relationship between us. Recognizing that, "Oh, maybe... maybe I don't... maybe it would be nice to have that but I'm not willing to do the thing that would be necessary to get that and live with the result." So yeah, I think it is important to get really clear about what the objective is and then kind of sort of asking ourselves, if we got that, what would the impact of it be? On ourselves, on the other person, on the situation around us? Because thinking about how that would affect things going forward, we might not want that outcome. Maybe we do if we doubt. And then I think the other thing to think about then is what are the chances of getting that result? What are the odds that that's going to happen? Yeah, we might really want it, but is it something that we think is realistic and could occur in that conversation?

Karen: 5:26

Yeah, and I think that's a huge mistake. We go into a conversation, not totally clear on what we want out of it. So we probably don't even craft the conversation very well for getting it. But aside from that, we don't have any reason to think that that thing is actually going to happen. We're kind of unconscious and wanting it. We haven't been super honest with ourselves. And realistically, that approval that we're looking for, that somebody's going to say that I'm right, or whatever the thing is. They haven't ever done that before. What evidence do I have to suggest that this is a possibility? And maybe I look at it and say, "Well, they haven't ever done it before because every time before I went at them in this particular frame," whether it's with judgment or various ways, I'm going to try it a different way, and maybe can feel heard out of it. Maybe a different approach will make a difference. And I'd then be looking at, okay, so I'm looking for an objective that past history suggests is unlikely. I have a brand new strategy, I've read a book, I've gone to a training, I've been coached by by therapist. I've got this new idea for how I'm going to approach that. And I hope it's going to make a difference. Which it might. I mean, we talk about all the time, how approaching a conversation differently can get you a different result. So yes, I'm on board with that. And how am I going to feel if it doesn't? Where am I gonna land on this if, okay, I made myself vulnerable, I did the thing, I tried it and turns out, they're still the same person they were. They still respond to me the same way they did. It doesn't actually get better. Will I still be glad I had that conversation?

Paul: 7:21

Yeah, in some ways, the conversations that are worth having around that are ones where the conversation is the outcome. Where the goal is just to have the conversation to see where it goes. And to be okay with sort of whatever results from it. As you said, hey, if I got this thing, it would be amazing, and if I don't get this thing, it's going to be horrible, and the chances of getting it are not big. Maybe that's a conversation you don't want to have. Maybe you kind of live with it. But another thing that I found, when I get into that kind of space, where I'm feeling that kind of thing, is going, "What is a different thing that I might try to get out of this conversation that actually is in my control?" I've probably talked about this conversation before. I had a difficult relationship with someone who I used to work with. And when I left that company, we were not on the best of terms. And for a long time, what I really wanted was him to admit that he'd done the wrong thing. And I sat with that for a while. I mean, like 18 months a while. Eventually I came around to, what I really want is to not have the relationship end this way, to stay where it is. And so what I circled back to in my head, as I just went, you know, what I really want out of a conversation, is to be able to say that. To be able to say that this did not go the way that I wanted it to and I recognize my part in that and I hope that we don't leave it here. And once I recognized that that was my objective in the conversation, I could do that. Because now it has nothing to do with how that lands with him. It was all about me needing to say that thing, regardless of how it landed. And I told myself going into it, maybe we're never gonna repair this. We're never gonna get back to where we were. But I would be okay with that, so long as I had said something about it. And that enabled me to actually immediately, I just texted him and was like, "Hey, do you want to get lunch sometime? I'd love to catch up." And we had that conversation. And I was able to say that. And nicely it actually led to a little bit more of a warming in the relationship and we've connected since then. And now I'm really happy because we didn't leave it where we had left it. But the more important part was my goal was just to say the thing that I needed to say. And that was in my control. So that was a conversation that I was totally willing to have.

Karen: 10:09

Yeah. And I think to broaden that example, a little bit, sometimes it's, "I haven't done the thing that I want to do." I haven't said the thing, I haven't revealed the thing, I haven't owned my own piece of a thing. Or I neglected a relationship, I didn't call and make that date for the next meeting, or whatever the thing. I didn't do the thing that I wanted to do. And so the goal is, I want to do that thing. That's probably a conversation to have. I want to get us back to the where we sort of started, which is, what are the flags that we don't actually want to have the conversation? So the first is that once I get clear about my objective, it turns out that objective is going to come with a lot of clutter that I don't actually want, and maybe I don't really want the thing. The second, I think that we're tracking is that the objective seems unlikely. The thing I actually want isn't going to happen, and whatever I'm worried about, about the costs of the conversation, and the fallout not worth the risk that is inherent in, I'm gonna try that thing and it probably won't happen anyway. And then the third one I want to point to is that collateral damage. Maybe I do, maybe I don't get the thing that I want, but the cost of the conversation is just too high. The conversation itself is... this is a person who I'm only going to get a certain amount of time with them. This isn't the priority way I want to spend it. This objective is less important than other things I might get out of that same amount of time, or it's just gonna be a lot of logistics to set it up, or it's a lot of emotional energy for me to get ready for this conversation, and in the end, it's not worth it to me. To be able to say that to myself,"Yeah, it would have been better to do that a different way," or there may be a thing that I could gain out of that, but the time and energy and emotional strain that it takes to do that... I'm letting go. It's not the right choice for me. So I think there are a lot of ways to get to, "I am really consciously and intelligently making a choice that although this is a conversation that could happen, that might imaginably have an objective I'd like, that might resolve the thing that's been niggling me you know what, I'm not gonna do it. And I'm going to feel good about that."

Paul: 12:34

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that's gonna do it for us for today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis.

Karen: 12:41

And I'm Karen Gimnig and this has been Employing Differences.