[00:00:00] Karen: Welcome to employing differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals. 

[00:00:09] Paul: I'm Paul Tevis.

[00:00:10] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig. 

[00:00:12] Paul: Each episode, we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, should we talk about our feelings? 

[00:00:20] Karen: So this is one we've touched on in probably almost every episode, because we do think that there is an emotional intelligence that goes along with the cognitive intelligence.

[00:00:30] Karen: And we think we live in a society that tends to value the cognitive, the logical, the fact based, the data driven, all that stuff is big. And so we're pretty sure that if you're in a group that's making a decision, you're going to talk about the cognitive things. But the question that we're asking today is, should we also talk about our feelings?

[00:00:52] Karen: And it won't surprise you that we're going to say, probably, like in most cases. But how do we get there? How do we know that this is the time or this is the topic or this is the group? How do we do that in the face of likely resistance in any group? There's probably somebody who thinks everything should just be logical and isn't so interested in the emotional work.

[00:01:13] Karen: So how do we navigate that? How do we know when is the time and if it is the time, how do we do it? That's kind of what we want to explore today. 

[00:01:20] Paul: It is no surprise that with my engineering background, I am used to working with a lot of people who dislike the F word. Which is to say feelings, which is often the way that I introduce it, right?

[00:01:32] Paul: When we need to get into that emotional space, like I'll often approach it with some humor because I know that the people that I work with are often uncomfortable with it. They just trust it like culturally in the sciences and engineering. Like There's even more of a sense of this is cognitive or in the business world, right?

[00:01:48] Paul: Where it's not personal, it's just business. And there's two things in there. One is we actually know that all kinds of things that we think are cognitive are actually emotionally based, the whole idea of motivated reasoning that we're never actually making completely logical arguments were always coming to that from some underlying emotional piece. But then I will also loop it back the other way where when I've got a group that I can tell like the feelings are coming out.

[00:02:15] Paul: They're showing up sideways. Sometimes they're masquerading as logical arguments. I will often lead into it by just saying, look, feelings are data and we actually need to access all the data we have available. There's some that lurking between the surface here. So let's try and get more of this out on the table so we can make sense of it.

[00:02:34] Paul: Or sometimes I'll say things like feelings are like the check engine light on your car. They're a sign that you need to slow down and pay attention. And so when I notice in a group or in a conversation with another person, it's coming up. Even if we don't want to admit it, that's usually the first sign to me that we probably do need to talk about them.

[00:02:55] Karen: And in the spaces where I work very often, there's sort of oddly a cognitive understanding that we should do emotional work, but that's different than an emotional commitment to doing the vulnerable and all of the scary, unsafe feeling stuff, uncomfortable stuff that is the actual work of dealing with feelings.

[00:03:16] Karen: So I would say in my facilitation practice, pretty routinely, I include just some kind of check in that has space for emotional sharing. I very often pause at different points or close with how I'm feeling as I'm arriving, how I'm feeling as I'm leaving the meeting, those kinds of rounds. I do a lot that's routinely lightly emotional, so people can kind of check in and say something.

[00:03:41] Karen: And if there is something big that shows up and most groups tolerate that pretty well, like that level we're fine with. But the more vulnerable emotional stuff, we've got a decision to make that looks pretty cognitive. Are we going to buy this thing? Are we going to hire this service? Are we going to start a new project?

[00:04:02] Karen: Things like that that seem like they'd be really data driven that bringing the emotional conversation about them in is a lot scarier for groups. And typically the moment when I do that is when they're stuck. If you can have a fully logical conversation and get to a place where you have a decision and everybody feels good about that decision, I'm not going to say it's a bad idea to do the emotional work.

[00:04:26] Karen: I'm just going to say we're not motivated enough to do it. But when we're stuck in the cognitive, generally because either we disagree about the facts. I think if we do this thing, it's going to save us money. You think if we do this thing, it's going to cost us money. We both have reasons for those beliefs, but we just don't agree or because there are five good reasons to do it, and there are five good reasons not to do it. 

[00:04:48] Karen: And I think the reasons to do it are the most important reasons, and you think the reasons not to do it are the most important reasons, even though they all exist. That happens all the time in groups. Decisions are rarely cut and dried if you just look at the logic.

[00:05:01] Karen: And if they were, then we wouldn't be hired as facilitators for them, because this is a thing we can do. But when the logic isn't getting us there, I find both that it's useful. It's a nice tool in my tool belt. And also groups are open when they know they're stuck, they might be willing to do a harder thing.

[00:05:20] Karen: So that's a moment that I might pull out an activity that really sets aside the cognitive logic stuff. And asks us to touch base with that emotional intelligence that we all have in a rarely access.

[00:05:34] Paul: The stuckness is a really, really great clue. And also again, recognizing that decision making is an inherently emotional process, right? There's the fascinating stuff in cognitive science about people who have had brain damage that basically prevents them from accessing their emotions. And it also gets rid of their ability to make decisions, right?

[00:05:53] Paul: We're actually always at some level doing that. But yeah, the recognizing that logic isn't going to get us out of the situation that we're in the stuckness. And then I think I would also add to that kind of the temperature of the room, right? Of like what's really happening in the group right now?

[00:06:08] Paul: And if we're looking in particular at that space between. How is the group functioning right now? Because there are some groups that actually can function okay in that space of stuckness where they go, yeah, okay, we don't really yet know. They're not bothered by it. Right. It's not having an impact on the people.

[00:06:27] Paul: That's rare, but often like that some groups are good at we're in this place of uncertainty. Instead, if the stuckness is causing, turmoil is causing, again, this is all the stuff that's beneath surface that maybe some people are saying maybe they aren't, right? If I ever get the feeling that there's a lot of people in the group who are really holding back, right? Who are being asked to contribute cognitively and logically and are struggling to do so, because largely where they're in is their feelings, then I think it's useful to go there, right?

[00:07:01] Paul: And to get that out again on the table and decide how we want to work with it. Because now we're sort of laying out what all is here. We're not ignoring this source of information and not being able to work with it. So for me, it's the combination of the stuckness and the effect that that stuckness is having on the group and on the people's emotional state.

[00:07:22] Karen: Yep. And another way I'd say, I think the same thing you're saying is when what I'm witnessing amounts to a debate, it looks like a logical debate and one side is winning. But the other side isn't given in, what it looks like on the surface is every time one side comes up with a problem, the other side has a good logical answer to it.

[00:07:42] Karen: But the other side just keeps saying, no, no, I'm not okay with this. This isn't getting done. That is another sign that the logic is not the thing that's going to get us out of this. The logic isn't the key player here. So, we've talked about, Paul and I, before we hit record today about the value of structure. 

[00:07:59] Karen: Because the one thing that doesn't work very well in our experience is when several members of the group or some members of the group are trying to have the logical conversation and somebody else sort of explodes into the space with a ton of emotion. And there's such a disconnect between the part of the brain that some people are using and the part of the brain that others are using.

[00:08:20] Karen: And then layered in the societal difference in value for cognitive over emotional. The tendency for that emotional outburst to be judged or dismissed or not taking it or not being valued or not being useful even is really, really high. So when there is a need for the emotions to come into the room, when we should talk about our feelings, we need to do that in an intentional and probably structured way.

[00:08:48] Paul: Yeah. My experience really has been every time that I've done this with groups, it's been incredibly beneficial to make space for people to talk about what they're feeling, but to create pretty clear boundaries about how we're going to do that to create a strong container that's going to be able to hold it.

[00:09:07] Paul: And ironically, and I think one of the things that happens that our nervousness about talking about feelings is that idea that it's going to kind of spiral out of control, right? That it's going to catch on and do all these things. And actually, if we can create a strong enough container for it, people can see how that's not going to happen.

[00:09:26] Paul: And so it actually reduces their anxiety about having other people talk about their feelings, even if they're not super willing to be vulnerable and do it themselves. It also creates an opportunity to do that. And so by structure, right? Usually the things that I find useful are things like equal time sharing, right?

[00:09:44] Paul: Everybody gets to speak and will speak for roughly the same period of time and what you have to say is valid, right? You're feeling what you're feeling. So ground rules around, oftentimes no other talking while someone is sharing, but if there is absolutely no dismissing, no saying, well, you shouldn't feel that way when no problem solving, right, because that's also dragging us back over into the cognitive of if you just did this thing, then you wouldn't feel this way. Because those are things that prevent people from really being able to express what they feel.

[00:10:17] Paul: Because my experience has been when we create a strong container that allows people to express it, it allows them to move through it and to get to a more useful place, which is where the unstuckness can come out of this. I know that you've got a bunch of techniques that you also use, Karen. 

[00:10:32] Karen: I do, and you know, and there's a whole range, and this is some of what Jana Ludwig and I wrote about in our book, The Cooperative Culture Handbook.

[00:10:39] Karen: Including several that are lengthy, I mean, the mirroring thing that I talk about a lot is good for this. There's a lot of things if you're at a point that you want to say, okay, we're going to time out and we're going to take an hour or 2 hours or whatever to really dig into this, which can be hugely valuable and relationship building and all of that.

[00:10:56] Karen: Like, it's good stuff. But a lot of the time that's not where we are a lot of the time I'm going to be pushing it to get away with 20 minutes hanging out in this emotional space. What I want to talk about, and it is in The Cooperative Culture Handbook. It's exercise 12.1. If you want to find that, we'll put it in the notes. 

[00:11:14] Karen: But it's one that is a quick. I mean, depends on the number of people in the room as these things always well, but it's a pretty quick way in. I called it what touches us. And so it's that frame of let's pause and I set it up and I just sort of say, okay, we've been talking about the cognitive and the logical for a while and we're stuck.

[00:11:34] Karen: So let's take a break. We value the cognitive and logical. We're not dismissing it or sending it away. We're just saying, let's going to pause that for a second so we can focus on the other side of our intelligence. So we can invite the emotional intelligence in the room. So you know, if you're willing, take a minute, close your eyes.

[00:11:51] Karen: Check in with what I would call your heart space, your emotions. What are you feeling? Maybe you find it in your body. What does your body physically feel like? And what does that tell you about the emotions you're carrying? There are various ways, however you want to introduce this, but just a little bit of a meditation into connecting with self and feelings. 

[00:12:07] Karen: I usually allow a little bit of silence there so people can do that connecting and then we do a round of what touches me as the prompt. Basically, what came up in that? What's showing up for you? What touches me about this? As opposed to what do I think about it?

[00:12:22] Karen: And in that round, depending on the number of people and how much time you have, I mean, it might even be share 2 sentences. So, I mean, you can even keep it pretty short, but a lot of times really key things show up in that, that maybe weren't unknown, but the intensity of them was unknown or the depth of feeling about them was unknown or it turns out the feelings might be the reason that that factor was so important, but the feelings are a real thing and they're part of the group.

[00:12:50] Karen: And so that makes it that important, even if the budget doesn't tell you that or other sort of factual data doesn't tell you that. So I find that to be one of the things I can just pull up in a meeting, even if I didn't plan the time for it, even if the group is not super excited about doing emotional work, it's a pretty light touch, but it allows the people who want to go deeper, can the people who want to stay more shallow can.

[00:13:13] Karen: And it fits into a meeting space without people feeling like they've been sort of taken over by the hippie dippie feelings guru, which can be the accusation if you just come in to a very cognitive group and insist on, you know, an hours long emotional exercise. So, that's my favorite for that situation.

[00:13:33] Paul: Yeah. And I think, I mean, it touches on a couple of things we've talked about before, right? So like when you're creating that space, as you said you're creating an opportunity for people to go as deep as they're willing and able to go, right? And you're not forcing them to go deeper than that.

[00:13:48] Paul: And what I find I think there are two things that are really important that happen as part of that process. One is this piece of whatever feelings are coming up for me, right? If I'm not expressing them at all, or I'm not really digging into them, I'm holding them, right? And we actually know that naming feelings like the actual putting a word on, I'm irritated, right?

[00:14:10] Paul: I'm frustrated. I'm not angry. I'm annoyed. Okay, great. That has an effect in the brain in terms of how we relate to it and helps us kind of move through. That's that even if no one hears what it is that I have to say, or everyone forgets immediately after I said it, I've now still said it. And so it's helped me to work through some of that.

[00:14:30] Paul: And so that can help me kind of deescalate where I'm at emotionally. So it can be good for me individually, but it can also be really useful to the group because new information is becoming available. I mean, as we said, like there is, we've been in this logical realm, but there's this other stuff that's there that's not getting said, that's not getting expressed.

[00:14:50] Paul: And so I might hear, and I might suddenly like, I might go, Oh, that's why this matters to Karen. Like, I didn't realize that. There's new information that becomes available to the group that can unstick us, right? That can now allow us to go, okay, we were totally undervaluing this thing. Because we didn't realize that 60 percent of the group actually cares really strongly about this stuff and that didn't come out in our purely logical, cognitive space.

[00:15:17] Paul: So I think those are two really specific things that doing something like this, any sort of structured exercise that allows people to go where they need to go, that can help get the group unstuck, which was our whole point of when you should dig into this anyway. 

[00:15:31] Karen: Yeah. So think what we're saying about, should we talk about our feelings as a general premise?

[00:15:35] Karen: Yes. And being respectful of the culture of the group and the broader culture of the society that we live in, which has a tendency to value the cognitive and the data driven stuff and the logical arguments over the emotional space. How do we know when is a good moment to bring in the emotional stuff for a group that is more resistant to doing that kind of work.

[00:15:58] Karen: And the indications that we see are largely about when we're stuck when there's sort of an imbalance when we can't get to a decision that we need to get to, or we can't get the buy in for the decision that we would need. To have it be useful. When the logical argument is seeming one sided without getting into agreement, the logical seems to be pointing one way, but the answer doesn't get agreement.

[00:16:19] Karen: Then there's something else in the room. And again, if the emotional tenor in the room is high. If it seems like, okay, we're having this logical conversation, but boy, there's a buzz that there's emotional stuff not being said. Those are all indications that we want to find a way to welcome emotions in the sharing of emotions into the room.

[00:16:39] Karen: We're going to need some kind of container or structure for that. The container will both make it feel safer for other people to share. And it'll also increase the safety of each individual who's sharing because they're within that structure. And structures want to be things like shared time. Everybody gets a chance to share a space that's where judgment isn't coming in. 

[00:16:57] Karen: People aren't getting dismissed. People aren't getting interrupted. People aren't getting talked over. And where we're not trying to problem solve. And so really saying, okay, we're going to have a space where we set aside the logical stuff and we just value and focus on the emotional stuff.

[00:17:12] Karen: And if we're looking for a fairly quick and easy way to do that, that would just drop into a meeting. The Cooperative Culture Handbook Exercise 12. 1 is a candidate for that. That's a pretty straightforward way to just sort of pause, everybody look internally, and then share what you found when you looked at that emotional space.

[00:17:30] Karen: Exercises like that can really help groups get unstuck and also get to better decisions that are informed by the full information, including the emotional information that's available. 

[00:17:41] Paul: Well, that's going to do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis. 

[00:17:45] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig, and this has been Employing Differences.