Introduction and Episode Question

[00:00:00] Paul: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals. 

[00:00:08] Karen: I'm Karen Gimnig. 

[00:00:10] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis. 

[00:00:11] Karen: Each episode, we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, is this my meeting? 

[00:00:18] Paul: On last week's episode, we talked about the question, can I come late?

[00:00:22] Paul: And which is a question that as someone who's facilitating or running, organizing a meeting that you might sometimes get. And the thought that can often come up when people start to say things about what they might do or make suggestions or improvements to your design or start not doing things that you're hoping that they would do in the middle of a meeting.

[00:00:44] Paul: The thought you might have is they're ruining my meeting. 

The Trap of Ownership in Meetings

[00:00:47] Paul: And Karen and I like to point out that this thought is a trap. It's a trap we've both fallen into a lot so many times. But we really want to explore today, a little bit about the thinking behind this, about how, as someone who is convening a meeting, someone who's facilitating a meeting, how we can fall into this trap of thinking that it's ours, that we own it, that we control it in some way, and what we might do about that.

[00:01:14] Karen: And I gotta say, it's just not hard to make the case that it is my meeting. I'm the one who spent hours, days, sometimes weeks preparing for it, when virtually no one else put that kind of energy into it, probably no one, depending on the meeting. And I was asked to be responsible for it. In some way, the group somehow assigned me that there is a role.

[00:01:36] Karen: I'm the one who's going to stand in front of everybody else and say, let's do this. And then let's do that. And then let's do this other thing. And now it's your turn to talk and all that kind of stuff. So it sure looks like it's my meeting. And I've sure invested in it like it was my meeting and for added fun, if I'm in my consultant role where I'm being paid for this, I'm being paid for it because I told them I could give them a better meeting than they would have if they didn't hire me.

[00:02:03] Karen: So I've even sort of owned some responsibility in the sense of I promised to deliver a thing. And all of that seems like it adds up to it's my meeting, but I'm going to say we just took two and two and got five. 

Responsibilities vs. Control

[00:02:18] Karen: Because all of that gets close to it's my meeting, but where it really gets us is I have some responsibility for bringing the expertise that I bring.

[00:02:28] Karen: I have some responsibility for having done my darndest to figure out which activities are going to get us to where we want to go. It's been my responsibility to figure out what our goal was to start with and get some clarity about that. And how I do that is going to change how the meeting comes out. I probably have more ability to shift how the meeting goes than anybody else in the room, so in those ways there's some truth.

[00:02:51] Karen: But at the end of the day, what I don't have, and shouldn't have, and don't want to have, is control over everybody else in the room. I can't make consensus appear. I can't make objections go away. I can't force people to show up and share authentically and give good feedback. There's a bunch of stuff that I might love to do and I might even facilitate and I might hopefully make more likely.

[00:03:17] Karen: But I can't change what the people in the room are willing to do. 

[00:03:22] Paul: Much as you might want to. 

[00:03:23] Karen: Oh, so much. 

[00:03:24] Paul: Yes. 

The Role of Facilitators

[00:03:25] Paul: I think you make a very good point that, yeah, you've done all this work. You've done these various things. You've invested a lot in it. And I think then that, so it can certainly feel like you own it.

[00:03:35] Paul: And I think there's also, oftentimes you feel like you're on the hook for if it doesn't deliver on what you needed, right? So for example, if you work in an organization and you own this meeting in the sense of like, there's a decision that needs to get made and you're on the hook for that decision.

[00:03:51] Paul: Then if the meeting you've called, you know, is not delivering on the decision making process, it can definitely be anxiety producing. Okay. And same thing where if you're a facilitator and you've received money in exchange for helping this to go better and it starts to go sideways, you know people are going to look at you like, why didn't you make this go better?

[00:04:11] Paul: I think there's often a case that when you're in a highly blamable role. It's very easy to fall into that trap of thinking I own this, therefore, I'm going to start trying to exert this kind of control that I don't actually have. And I think that is what happens. I know I've seen that happen in my own practice.

[00:04:32] Paul: Is going, Ooh, it's going sideways. I have to fix it because I'm going to get blamed if it doesn't turn out exactly the way that I promised in the brochure. And when I start to do that, I actually start to steal things from the group. We've talked about this before. I actually get in the way of them doing the things that I actually need them to do in order to get to where they want to go.

[00:04:56] Karen: And I want to connect this back to last week's episode in the sense that it's such a good example of a thing where groups will say, well, you know, several people in this meeting are going to come late. And I can say that's going to degrade your result, as we said in the episode last week. And you can get into that with that episode.

[00:05:13] Karen: But that also applies to things like, can we set up the furniture this way? Can we take an appropriate number of breaks or, you know, we get hired to come in and do a workshop and how many hours is that workshop going to be and does that match the stamina of the people that we've got? Like, there are a ton of things that I would love to decide about that I may not get to decide about.

[00:05:33] Karen: I do think it's my job as the person with this expertise to come in and say, okay, well, if you do it that way, there will be a cost to that and, it will change our results in these ways. But also this isn't just about, if I stand my ground, they won't hire me or something like that. It's about, I can't do my job if I don't remember every minute of every day that each person and each group has their own autonomy and I don't get to know what's right for them.

[00:06:06] Karen: I wasn't given a magic hat. That will tell me what their needs are and what their personal histories are and what's best for them. I don't know that as well as they do. I will never know that as well as they do. So I can bring a bunch of ideas for how to help them get their needs met better than they know how to get their needs met.

[00:06:26] Karen: How to help them hear each other and connect with each other. I can bring a lot of stuff like that. But at the end of the day, if they're showing up and saying, That's not right for us. I have to believe them. 

[00:06:36] Paul: That's one of the things that I try to do a lot when I find myself starting to, I feel in my body where I start to go like, they're not putting in the work that I need them to do ahead of time, or they're not listening to the advice that I'm giving and that they don't trust my expertise.

[00:06:52] Paul: When I start to get into that place, right? One, I hear it a little bit in my head, but I start to feel it in my body as well. But two, what I really try to do at that point is, I generally have sort of principles or mantras or reminders that I want to bring through my brain to help me calm back down, to get back to the place where I can actually be useful again.

[00:07:12] Paul: Because if I start trying to take ownership of the meeting in this way that we're talking about, I stopped being useful. I stopped doing the job that I'm actually there to do. And so I need to get back to that. It's understandable why I would get there. But one of the things that I remind myself of often is.

[00:07:29] Paul: They are experts in who they are, in what they're capable of doing in their situation. I have expertise in a lot of group process work and things like that. And the kinds of things we talk about on the show, but I'm partnering with them. And exactly. As you said, like when a group tells me. Well, I don't think that will work.

[00:07:50] Paul: I'm inclined to believe them and get curious about it and go, tell me a little more about why you think the thing that I've suggested won't work here. I'm at least going to engage them in it. And then usually I'm going to learn something in that process, and I'm probably going to come up with a better design than if I hadn't gotten that input, that doesn't happen if I just stand my ground and I go, I know best, you need to respect my expertise and authority and things like that.

[00:08:18] Paul: If I dig in my heels, I miss the opportunity to actually improve what's going on. 

Modeling Behavior for Groups

[00:08:23] Karen: I think that's so true, and the other thing that you do when you do that, and that I hope that I do when I do that, is you model for them a profoundly new way of being. Most of the groups that I work with, most of the individuals that I work with, have a ton of experience of a person in charge, a hierarchy in play that trumps the relationships and trumps everything else.

[00:08:46] Karen: And I'm the person at the front of the room. I've got the mic in my hand. Maybe I'm the CEO. Maybe I'm something else. But I am the boss in this moment and I get to tell you what to do and that's what's going to happen. We know how that plays out. We've all done that, we know that, we don't know how to be the person with the microphone when that is beginning to show up and be present and be curious and be interested and keep the group engaged.

[00:09:14] Karen: This is a thing that's brand new for a lot of folks. And so as a facilitator, I choose which of those paradigms I'm going to model for them. It's super important to model the one that fosters connection, that fosters communication, that fosters safety in the room, all that stuff that we talk about every episode.

[00:09:32] Karen: If I don't model it in that moment, I'm not living what I teach. 

[00:09:37] Paul: And I think that's another great sort of reminder to self in that moment is, how do I model the behavior that I actually want them to be doing? Right. I need to show up in the same way that I'm hoping that they will. And so if I dig in my heels and just assert my authority here, then they're likely to do the same sorts of things.

[00:09:58] Paul: And I'm not modeling that the thing that I want. I think that's another great reminder. And I think part of the reason why those reminders are so important is you and I have talked a little about this before, you know, one of the, phrases that I occasionally use on the show when we talk about facilitation, right?

[00:10:10] Paul: I say a facilitator is someone who is trusted by the group to make decisions about structures and processes that will help the group to achieve its goals. I picked that up in 2014 and I still struggle to actually live it. I had a client last year where I'm just like, they're not doing the work ahead of time.

[00:10:30] Paul: They're not going to get the result they want. Why won't they listen to me? This, that, and the other thing. And I have to get back to that place of going. When I'm resentful of them, when I'm angry about what they're doing, this thing, that thing, I'm not being useful. I'm not of service. I'm not actually living the thing that I've said that I needed to be doing.

[00:10:46] Paul: And so I think there's a big, big difference between cognitively knowing the role and what it is that you're supposed to be doing and emotionally embodying it and living it and doing it. And it's very easy. And I think this is also a thing where our own personal baggage around expertise, people not listening to us, things like that can pop up. 

[00:11:08] Paul: Any of those things, the person who has hired us reminds us of a bad boss that we had in the past. Any of those things can come up. 

Embracing Vulnerability

[00:11:15] Paul: And I think this is a lot about the inner work of running a meeting, right? You can know all these kinds of principles and have the expertise around how group processes work, but you also have to do that self management.

[00:11:26] Paul: And emotional regulation while you're doing it so that you have access to all your skills. 

[00:11:32] Karen: Yeah, and I kind of had to retrain my brain, I think, because I learned those same lessons growing up that I think most of us learn about, well, if I'm in control, I'm safe and, you know, I'm pretty smart. So if I'm in control and I'm managing things, I'm probably making it work for everybody because I know I'm that benevolent, right?

[00:11:50] Karen: And that might even be true to a certain extent, but the fact is that at the end of the day, the kinds of relationships that I want, the kind of engagement that I want, the kind of decisions and the amount of buy in and all that stuff that I actually want.

[00:12:03] Karen: And so I am absolutely capable of exerting control over a room. I mean, any room you could, or you couldn't, but as that talent goes, I'm pretty good, and so I really had to train myself. When I get that feeling of, I need to control this, that is a major red flashing light in my brain. And I had to relearn that, because it started out as my green light, happy place.

[00:12:28] Karen: Oh good, I can manage this. I mean, I taught third grade. I was supposed to control everybody, and boy did I. Not the same thing. I wouldn't even do it in teaching third grade anymore, but that certainly was how the job was defined 20 years ago when I was doing it. And so I had to shift that this feeling of, I would like to control this group, I would feel better and safer if I controlled this group, had to go from green light in my brain to red light in my brain.

[00:12:55] Karen: And once I did that and worked through it a few times, felt vulnerable as all get out the first time, like, really, I'm just going to let go and let the group do what they need to do. And you learn how to tell the group, okay, this is going to be your call. In various ways, you learn how to say, okay, I think what I was planning wasn't the right thing.

[00:13:13] Karen: Let's go back and find a path through that that doesn't completely stall out the meeting, all that kind of thing. So you learn some skills about how to pivot. That probably could be another episode at some point. But having done it a few times, I've learned that pattern, a new pattern. It is a brand new pattern, was for a while, and I think it is for most people.

[00:13:34] Karen: That, I get that instinct, this is all going to chaos, that my plan is being thrown out, there's mutiny in the room, I need to control is my first thought and that's still my first instinct, it doesn't completely go away, there's still a big part of me that would like to reach out and control, and then I see that red light, and go, nope, this is the sign that I need to flip and go the exact opposite way.

[00:13:59] Karen: And it still feels vulnerable. And next to that vulnerability, I also have that vulnerable feeling. That's when something good is about to happen. Like that's the fact that I'm scared, that I'm not in control, that anything might happen, almost always, not always, but almost always, that turns out to be a really good space.

[00:14:22] Karen: And so, I just want to name that for most of us headed in this direction, it is a big cliff to jump off of, and it's really hard the first time, and it doesn't ever completely go away, but it does get easier, and the more that you do it, and the more that you, like, you jump off that cliff and you survive.

[00:14:40] Karen: Okay, then it doesn't seem quite so high the next time and doesn't seem quite so high the next time and you just kind of hone those skills. So it's scary and it's important and it's maybe the most important thing I ever model for any group. 

Conclusion and Recap

[00:14:53] Paul: We'll to track sort of where we've been today and we're talking about this idea of when we're feeling on the hook to deliver in some way around a meeting, either because, you know, there are some outcome from the meeting, some output from the meeting that we are accountable for, whether or not we're a facilitator there is helping to help the meeting to happen.

[00:15:11] Paul: It can be very natural to feel like we own the thing, right? And that we want to control it to kind of get to what you've been talking about. It's very natural, right? Because we invested a lot into it. We thought a lot about it. And there are consequences to us if it doesn't go well, but that can really get in the way of the group actually doing what you need the group there to do.

[00:15:34] Paul: And so when you start to notice that you're taking undue amounts of ownership, when you're trying to over control, what's happening there in the room, you need to figure out how to calm yourself down from that. What are things that you can remind yourself of that will help you sort of give it back to the group to that will help you do that right.

[00:15:52] Paul: And that may be reminding yourself, Hey, they're experts in what's going on here. When they tell me that we're not going to be able to meet during this time, or these people are going to need to be in and out. And we'd prefer not to adjust the schedule. You need to trust that they actually know something about themselves.

[00:16:07] Paul: When they don't participate in activities that they have good reasons for doing that, things like that, it may be that, but I think more than anything, it is kind of getting to this piece you've been talking about, Karen, about how recognizing that if the group is there to do something collectively, which is why there's a whole group, there is a pattern of behavior, of interaction you need between them, and you have to model that type of behavior as a facilitator.

[00:16:33] Paul: Being open to what's going on. Listening to what's happening in the room. Not trying to control what's happening. That pattern of control equals safety is very deep seated for many, many, many of us. And the feeling that I'm going to need to be vulnerable is scary. And so oftentimes our reaction to that fear of needing to be vulnerable, of trying to control what's going on.

[00:16:57] Paul: And that really for us is a lot of the journey of learning how to work well with groups is to embrace that vulnerability to notice when it's starting to get a little scary, like we need to jump off the cliff. And to, you know, jump off some small cliffs to recognize and to learn the skills, to ride ourselves on the way down. So that we splash feet first into the water as things go and that you can think about this all you want, but that's so much of what we need to do as people who help groups work better together is to be able to stand in that place and go, I don't have control of this.

[00:17:33] Paul: Yes. I've invested in a lot of this. Yes. I have a lot of expertise around this, but I don't control it and I shouldn't try to. 

[00:17:39] Karen: That's going to do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Karen Gimnig. 

[00:17:43] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis, and this has been Employing Differences.