Introduction and Episode Question

[00:00:03] Karen: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals. 

[00:00:09] Paul: I'm Paul Tevis. 

[00:00:10] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig. 

[00:00:11] Paul: Each episode, we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, what does no do? 

The Struggle with Saying No

[00:00:19] Karen: So as many of our episodes begin before we hit record with one of us arrives with a thing that happened and we start talking about it, this was one of those.

[00:00:29] Karen: And the thing that happened for me was that I got an email a few days ago asking me to do a thing that's, this is from a collaborator, someone I have a great relationship with, we have worked together on a few things, and they asked me to do a thing and my initial instinct was just, no. No, this isn't a good idea.

[00:00:51] Karen: No, I don't want to do it. No, I won't enjoy doing it. No, I don't like the impact I think it's going to have. Like more than usual for me, I had this very strong, like, no. So I didn't answer her because I didn't want to be the no person. And it actually was a question asked of me and another of our collaborators.

[00:01:08] Karen: So I kind of did the, well, I hope the other one will answer. Then I won't have to, we'll see how that goes. And how it went was nobody answered and then the question came up again and I did kind of have to answer it. And having had some time to cool down and think about it and consider, I'm still a really firm no.

[00:01:27] Karen: And I'm very unhappy about this. I don't want to say no, I don't want to argue my case and stand my ground on it. And I'm curious about that because what I would advise a client in my situation to do is absolutely you have to say no. Like you have to. And you don't have to say no in an ugly, dominating, firm, you know, drawing a line in the sand kind of way.

[00:01:51] Karen: You don't have to do that kind of no. But if you're really clear that this is a terrible idea, you need to say that you think this is a terrible idea. And probably give some reasons for it because we are in a collaborative space. 

The Impact of No in Collaboration

[00:02:02] Karen: But it got Paul and I talking and thinking about when should we say no, and why don't we like to, and what happens when we do?

[00:02:12] Karen: And ultimately, that's the thing that we want to talk the most about is what happens when no comes into a collaborative relationship. 

[00:02:20] Paul: And I think that the reason why we don't want to say no is what we think is going to happen as a result of saying the no, right? And particularly through the lens that we tend to look at this, we're thinking about what's the impact that this no is going to have on this relationship?

[00:02:34] Paul: And that may be, like, a more relational impact, like we talk about on this show, we're like, oh, this is what it's going to mean for our future collaboration, or how this other person thinks or feels about me, or what's going to be possible for us in the future, but for a lot of people, I think what's really front of mind is, if I say no to this request, it's going to come back to haunt me in some way, right?

[00:02:54] Paul: This person's going to hold it against me they're now going to look for an opportunity to say no to something for me in the future, or there's going to be some consequence for me, I think is really what comes to the forefront of a lot of people's minds. Certainly comes to the front of my mind when somebody asks me for a thing, when I'm in a situation like that, where I'm like, I think this is a bad idea.

[00:03:13] Paul: And even though I'm really clear that it's a bad idea and that I want to say no, I still don't want to say no. I don't want to put that out there in the space. And I loved your, you know, the thing you said is I'm really hoping somebody else says no to this because we're hoping somebody else is going to step into the line of fire, you know, with that.

[00:03:30] Karen: I'd even have been happy if somebody else had said yes and I could go, okay, I must be wrong. 

[00:03:35] Paul: Right. But just like sitting there holding the no, holding it in, being like, I can't let it out. And I do think it comes from. I think there is sort of a view of we're afraid of what the consequences are going to be.

[00:03:45] Paul: And I think that we may have some very specific, but kind of on the other hand, like improbable things that it's going to happen, right? Oh, they're going to hate me, right? This is going to thing, they're going to think of me in this way. I think that's really the thing that comes up. 

Cultural and Contextual Factors

[00:03:58] Paul: And I think that comes from some of the cultural stuff around being collaborative, around being helpful, right?

[00:04:03] Paul: We've talked before about how it is seen as a social virtue to be helpful and to say yes. And to do things for other people and saying no. 

[00:04:12] Karen: And I want to divert for a second from our main topic, just to acknowledge that it's been sort of in the culture these days to say no as a complete sentence, like you can just say no, you don't have to give all your excuses or reasons or thoughts or whatever, that you don't have to have a good reason, you just say no.

[00:04:27] Karen: And I want to say, I value that, but I value it outside of truly collaborative spaces. So, if someone that I go to church with calls me up and says, Hey, will you host the, whatever, do a task for the church over the next month? That's just about am I willing to give my time to something. I wouldn't call that a truly collaborative space.

[00:04:46] Karen: And I think in that case, no can be a complete sentence. There may be, you may want to give reasons or not, but you don't have to because basically, they're asking me to donate my time, and I get to be in charge of my time, and that's really the only impact it has. Like yeah, they'll have to go find somebody else or maybe that thing won't happen.

[00:05:02] Karen: But it's not the same as the situation that I'm in this week of, it's a question about a shared project. It's a thing that we're doing together, and if I say no, I don't want to do it that way, the whole project changes, and what they do changes, and like, that's a different situation. So I want to say, that sense of, can you just say no and mean no?

[00:05:25] Karen: Well, if it's only about you, absolutely. And I think that's great, but if it's about a joint thing, I think it's going to have some impact on the relationship and you need to be thoughtful about what that is and how to do it. 

[00:05:37] Paul: Yeah. 

Strategies for Saying No

[00:05:37] Paul: I think that absolutely that idea, when we talk about boundaries, right, you can say like, this isn't working for me.

[00:05:43] Paul: And honestly, in a lot of cases, you don't need to explain it any further. I also think, back to my improv days. When we talk about, how collaboration works and this idea in improv, there's this notion of yes and right, but the two pieces there that are important, right. Yes, is about accepting what's going on in the reality, the other person is helping to co create.

[00:06:02] Paul: You're not denying what's going on there. The and is about the additive and the building forward. And that's where collaboration really comes from. So if you're just saying yes in an improv scene, you're not actually helping, right? You're passengering. You're not moving things forward. And so when we're in a situation where we are being called upon to collaborate, to work together, to do some joint problem solving, I agree with you that we get to say no to things, but we're still committed to the work, right?

[00:06:29] Paul: To the relationship, to helping this thing move forward. And we can also still have a boundary where we can say, I'm not comfortable doing it that way, right? I'm not going to do that. And here are the concerns that I have that we would need to overcome in order to be able to move forward.

[00:06:43] Paul: If all you're doing is saying no, as a complete sense there, and you're giving your collaboration partner nothing to work with, right? You're not moving the work forward. And that's a situation where the impact that that has on the collaborative relationship is now you really are being seen as blocking and obstructionist and things like that.

[00:06:59] Paul: You don't necessarily have to come off your firm no, but if you want to be collaborative, if you want to maintain that relationship relatively well, you do need to give them an in until like, here's what's going on with me. I'm staying on the no here. I'm willing to work with you to figure out other ways we might be able to move forward with this, but not this one.

[00:07:19] Karen: And I think one of the things that I did well, albeit probably not for the best of reasons, but the thing of I got the ask, I had a very strong mental, emotional no in my head. And I think it was probably a clever idea to pause and let myself settle with it, ask myself, why actually do I feel so strongly about this?

[00:07:41] Karen: And just let my thoughts gather and get past that sort of first emotional hit of how strongly I felt about it. So albeit, I was delaying, hoping somebody else would deal with it, which isn't the best of ideas. I think also it was a good idea not to try to respond instantly when I have that very emotional no.

[00:08:00] Karen: And sometimes, I get this very strong emotional no, and if I give it some time, I realize, Oh, okay, there are reasons I don't want to do it, but I also can see all the reasons it's a good idea, right, and maybe I'm not the one to do it and somebody else should, or maybe we should try to achieve those things another way, or maybe, yeah, I don't really want to, but, in the end, I do actually want to, like, it's a good idea, like, all of that can happen, or what happened this time, which is, okay, I stopped and I thought about it. 

[00:08:25] Karen: And the more I thought about it and the more different angles that I looked at it from the more reasons I had that I didn't think it was a good idea, but at least I was clear in my thinking and I wasn't responding. Like I was listening to the emotional part of me that was saying, uh, danger, danger, don't do this.

[00:08:41] Karen: But I also was taking time to connect that emotional part with the cognitive and say, okay, why, what's going on here? What feels not right about this? And then I can be more coherent in how I share it. 

[00:08:51] Paul: Yeah. And that points to, I think, what's the most useful thing to think about is how to give the no. You talked about at the very beginning of the episode, you said, you know, I'm in this space where this thing is happening and I know that I need to say no to this thing, but I don't want to stand my ground.

[00:09:06] Paul: I don't want to argue my case. I don't want to do all these things. You're gearing up for a fight, right? I think when you say no in that way, it can be damaging to the relationship. When we are really emotionally involved, like when we're going to have a fight about it, well, that's going to have an effect.

[00:09:22] Paul: And so one of the things that you did in that situation was be able to get to the point where you could say no in a relatively straightforward way, in a way that wasn't a big deal. And I think that's one of the things that can be really, really useful. I had a client reach out a few weeks ago about a thing and they said, Hey, we're looking for somebody who could do a talk around this thing for a company kickoff.

[00:09:41] Paul: And I was like, great, I'd be interested in doing that. Here are two different talks that I could do. He came back and said, Hey, could you do both of those talks for the same price? And I said, uh, no, if you want both of them, it'll cost this much. But I wasn't worked up about it. All right. And then, so I said, no, I can't.

[00:09:57] Paul: And now it's balls back in your court. You get to decide, like, do you want one of them for the original price? Do you want both of them for this higher price? You get to decide. But I wasn't in that space of how dare you ask me to do this thing? You're like, it could have been very easy for me to get worked up about it.

[00:10:13] Paul: And I'm like, they asked and I said, no, okay. And they came back and said, great. We'd love to have you do both of them for the higher price. How do we move forward with it? So I think there is a lot about, it's not so much the no, it's how the no lands, how we bring it out, how we deploy it, and how we work with the other person's response to it.

[00:10:33] Paul: That really is the thing that has the effect on the space between. 

[00:10:36] Karen: And I think most of the time in collaboration spaces, and this is a little less like you're back and forth with your client about your two talks, like obviously they would love to pay you less money and you'd love for them to pay you more.

[00:10:47] Karen: So that's, there is an element of competition in there. So that was playing out and it worked out fine. But especially in truly collaborative spaces. Very often, if I can say, I'm not wild about that idea, because, and these are the things, often the things that I am thinking about are things that the other person didn't think about. Like from their side of whatever they're looking at it, it hadn't occurred to them, hadn't been obvious to them, I mean, maybe as simple as they don't realize how much time it would take me to do the thing they're asking me to do because they don't do it, that's not their specialty or whatever.

[00:11:20] Karen: So, very often I think the effect of the no is to get more information in the system. 

[00:11:28] Paul: And I think that is, kind of pointing back to when you're in that collaborative space and you're working with this other person or these other people, if you're giving the no, give the information that goes along with it, right?

[00:11:39] Paul: That is the thing that helps us move forward. Because as you're right, like oftentimes you're objecting to a thing that they aren't aware of, or they aren't aware of the impact of it or all of these things. You're bringing new information to light, but if you just keep that information in your head, and it doesn't come out of your mouth, it's not in the space for you to work with jointly.

The Importance of No in Healthy Collaboration

[00:11:58] Karen: So one of the things that for me is a marker of a really healthy collaborative relationship is that no happens. Like that people say, I don't like that. I don't want to do that. I don't think that's a good idea. And it may not be a hundred percent no, although it can be. It may be that part of that thing doesn't work for me, but it's interesting how I think there's a piece in our culture right now around good collaboration means agreeing, it means going along, it means, taking one for the team and doing the thing that other people want, because I don't want to be the one that disrupts things.

[00:12:32] Karen: And I just want to say, I think the opposite is true. I think the, what does no do? No broadens the conversation. No brings better information into the room. No honors and respects all of the roles and all of the needs, including mine. I can't expect them to respect a need that I didn't tell them about. And so, it is a super important thing.

[00:12:54] Karen: And if you're in a group where nobody ever says no, I'm gonna guess that you're missing out on a richer collaboration that you could have. If it was safe to say no, whether it's the word no, or whether there's some other way to say it, how you frame it, how you engage with it, honoring the culture of the group, that stuff's all super important, but I just want to point to my very strong instinct, despite the fact that I teach this stuff all the time, my very strong instinct was, not that big a deal, I can just do it, and to say, that's not the right answer, that is not collaboration, that is not me being collaborative. That is me denying the rest of the group my best information.

[00:13:34] Paul: And to take that, even further and into the more hierarchical spaces that I tend to work in, there's a wonderful article I read years ago called saying no, a short course for managers that makes exactly that point that when you just say yes to a thing that you know is a bad idea, you deny the opportunity for the group to problem solve, but it also gets into the case of like, sometimes if we go back to that idea of you're trying to add information, you're trying to help things move forward.

[00:14:02] Paul: You know, oftentimes I work with a lot of middle managers in it who have a reputation for being obstructionists for always saying no to things, and they're doing it for legitimate reasons, but they're not necessarily doing it in the most skillful way. 

[00:14:14] Paul: I'd say like, we need to make this thing happen. Or, can you make this thing, you know, do this thing. Right. And they've already got a full plate. And one of my favorite tricks around this, when your boss asks you a thing, right? And now you're really worried about the effect of the no, right? I need you to do this thing.

[00:14:31] Paul: And the wonderful way of doing that is not saying no, but adding the information. So you can say things like, we can do that. The effect of it is going to be that this, this, this, and this will happen. And now they get to decide, do they want those things to, oh, yes, I'm good with those consequences.

[00:14:48] Paul: Or, oh, I had no idea that that would be the result. Like, that's kind of getting to your point about how you're wanting to say no is usually a sign you've got some information that probably the rest of the group doesn't have, your boss doesn't have, whoever it is you're talking to. So how can you really bring that information, as opposed to just saying, okay, sure, hiding that information, hiding the consequence, living with resentment.

[00:15:10] Paul: Because that's really a thing that we see happen in terms of like, we talk about what's this no gonna do? What's the yes gonna do? 

[00:15:18] Karen: Yeah. And I guess I want to pull in a word that we use almost every episode, because we've just made the case for why this is for sure you should be saying the no, it's super valuable in the collaborative spaces.

[00:15:31] Karen: And I am identifying that although I didn't learn anything brand new in this episode, particularly, probably thought about things more deeply. I know this stuff and I still didn't want to say no. And it's because the no is vulnerable. Agreement feels safe. Disagreement, objections, rocking the boat. All of that feels like there could be repercussions, there could be relationship downsides, there could be something on the other side of it that doesn't feel safe.

[00:16:01] Karen: So this is the vulnerability thing. I have to show up as the whole knee, and by the way, I have to show up as different. Like, I'm disagreeing because I am different, and if I agree, then I fit in, and I'm like everybody else. And there is a deep, this is evolutionary, like, old, old brain stuff, fit in. Fit in with your group that is survival.

[00:16:24] Karen: And it comes into play here. 

[00:16:25] Paul: I'll add one more thing to that, which is that the risk, the vulnerability of saying the no is immediate. It is immediate as soon as the word comes out of your mouth, as opposed to, if you think about the consequences of the yes, those are often down the road, they're hidden, they're somewhere else, right?

[00:16:42] Paul: And so we are much more willing to take that on because it's not immediate, but because we know that as soon as we say no to the other person, or we raise the objection, or we bring the thing up. Now we're going to have to deal with the consequences of that right then and there, as opposed to being able to defer, hide, maybe fool ourselves into thinking it's not going to happen.

[00:17:04] Paul: So I totally agree with you. It's a risk, and the risk is very, very present. 

[00:17:08] Karen: And in addition to the risk of, Paul may hate me forever because I said no, which is less likely, but maybe. There's also the more likely risk of, because I said no, we're going to have to have a real connected present conversation and that, as rewarding as it is, is always hard work, right?

[00:17:28] Karen: It's harder to say no and have the conversation that goes on. And by the way, that's also part of why people object to say no. It's not that they care that you don't want to do it. It's that, well, now we have to have the hard conversation. And we do. And it's the hard conversation that is what makes collaboration work.

[00:17:43] Paul: It's the now I do have to gear up for the fight because I know how you're going to take the no, and now I don't want to do this, but yeah, we've got to do it here and now. And now I've got to do hard work here and now. 

Conclusion and Key Takeaways

[00:17:54] Paul: So just to track kind of where we've been today, we're exploring this notion of when we say no, why we don't sometimes, even when we know that it's a good idea, you know, the idea that we don't want to say no to things, right? 

[00:18:07] Paul: We can be seen as selfish? We have to get involved in a very emotional sort of argument. And so there's a lot of things that are sort of stacked against us, right? Even when we know it's a good idea. It's vulnerable for us to say no, and so we often don't want to. We explored a little bit this idea, about what is the actual impact that no has on a relationship, 

[00:18:29] Paul: and so when we're talking about boundary setting and things that are just entirely about how they affect you, no really can be a complete sentence. But when you're in a place where you're collaboratively problem solving, you're working together on things, just saying no without providing any new information is a blocker.

[00:18:45] Paul: It doesn't really move the work or the conversation or the relationship forward and can have a real negative effect. But that when we are able to say no in a way that doesn't invite a fight where we can do it casually, or we can say, this is what's going on, where we're sharing information with our partner or with the group about what's happening so that we could move the work together forward. 

[00:19:07] Paul: Then that's much more likely to have a positive impact on the relationship rather than the negative ones that we're worried about. And really the idea that we want to, when we bring our know to a space like that, add information, help build, help move forward, point out things that other people aren't seeing.

[00:19:23] Paul: In a way that is positive and contributing because fundamentally no is necessary for collaboration that if we're in a group or in a working relationship where people aren't saying no to things. That we're probably not collaborating, that people are just saying yes to stuff, to get along, to defer having the hard conversation, and that we really need to be cognizant of how we're showing up and how that's actually affecting what's going on.

[00:19:49] Paul: Not just what our programmed and often emotional brain is telling us about what the effect of the no is going to be. 

[00:19:56] Karen: That's going to do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Karen Gimnig. 

[00:20:00] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis, and this has been Employing Differences.