Introduction to the Topic

[00:00:00] Karen: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals. 

[00:00:08] Paul: I'm Paul Tevis. 

[00:00:10] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig. 

[00:00:11] Paul: Each episode, we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, how present should I be? 

The Modern Challenge of Presence

[00:00:19] Karen: So this is a question that comes up, I think, more in today's world than it ever has before.

[00:00:23] Karen: And increasingly, I think we're in the age of social media and various other elements trying to grab our attention. In fact, a lot of fragmented attention, you know, we get TikTok and other things that are like these short little bits of video and we're watching a little bit and then going on to the next thing. 

[00:00:40] Karen: And so in the work that Paul and I do, where we're thinking about sitting down with a group of people for an hour and having lengthy, perhaps deep conversations, or maybe it's not an hour, maybe it's a day's workshop. But there's all of that range, there is now the possibility to be fully physically present, to be on Zoom and somewhat present or fully present, to be looking at a phone or not, to be doing things with our hands or not.

[00:01:08] Karen: And it's a pretty different world than, I remember elementary school where pay attention meant sit quietly with nothing in your hands and not doing anything and looking at me kind of thing.

[00:01:19] Karen: Fortunately, I think we've escaped that and are more in the space of understanding that sometimes in order for people to pay attention and take in information well, they need to do something with their hands or they need some kind of movement or different environments work for them. But we want to explore today is that brings up a question about how present should I be and what helps me be that present.

Impact of Presence on Group Dynamics

[00:01:44] Karen: And we want to look at both like, what are the individual needs in making that choice and also what are the group impacts? And so we think this is kind of a companion episode to episode 246, which was, Can I be late? And there we talked about the impact on a group of people arriving late, coming and going from a meeting, being there for part of a time, but not all of it, that kind of thing.

[00:02:06] Karen: So, that relates to the how present can I be? And we'll direct you to that one for that question. And today we really want to explore what does it mean to be present? What does it look like? 

Multitasking and Its Effects

[00:02:17] Karen: When does multitasking work? When does it not? And it's really this question about attention, I think, as a measure of presence. 

[00:02:25] Paul: And I'd say this is really a counterpart to that episode in the sense that we're kind of taking the opposite perspective in that episode, we were talking about as a facilitator, you know, how do I field these questions of when people want to come late and this and the other thing. We actually want to look at this through the lens of as a participant.

[00:02:41] Paul: Right. I'm going to be attending this meeting or I'm going to be part of this group. And I'm trying to decide, what is it that I want to do? Oh, great. There's this all hands meeting for work. And I know that it's just going to be a bunch of announcements and watching through slides and listening to things and no real opportunity for Q and A.

[00:02:59] Paul: And so I might go, yeah, you know, I'm going to dial in. I'm gonna watch that while I'm washing dishes. Right? That's very different than saying, well, there's this meeting that I'm part of where this group is gonna make a decision and that's gonna influence the future of our community group. And so I'm just gonna dial in while I'm cleaning the house.

[00:03:17] Paul: We really want people to make good decisions about how present they are and where their attention is and where their focus is. 

Making Conscious Choices

[00:03:24] Paul: And in a lot of ways we want to help people make informed decisions about that, you know, recognizing as a participant, I have choices about what it is that I'm going to do.

[00:03:33] Paul: How do I make choices that are conscious and intentional that help me and also help the group? 

[00:03:39] Karen: Yeah, I think one of the things I want to point to here is that, in our busy, we've got a lot going on, like in our lives today, it's easy to miss the part about what's going on relationally. So the sense of, they really want me to go to this thing, my workmates, my community mates, whatever, really want me to attend this thing, but I just don't have the time unless I can also be putting dinner together or cleaning the house, whatever the things I need to be doing. So I'll log in by Zoom. That'll give them what they need and I'll be able to get what I need and that works for everybody. And as you say, I think there are cases where that absolutely is true.

[00:04:17] Karen: And I think there are cases where it not only isn't true, but it's far more disruptive to the group than we think. 

Relational and Cognitive Considerations

[00:04:24] Karen: And I think the line I want to draw there, and it's not a clear line, it's a very nuanced thing, but the line I'm going to try to draw is if it's just information exchange, it's highly cognitive, we're not into emotional space, we're not in disagreement space, we're not in conflict space, we're just here's some stuff we'd like you to know.

[00:04:42] Karen: I think that works pretty well multitasking. Most of us can take in, oh, there's going to be a conference and there's, you know, whatever that information might be while we're folding laundry. Most of us can handle that. But as soon as you step into, we're trying to work through conflict. We're trying to deal with complex information.

[00:04:59] Karen: We're in relational space. There are strong emotions about it. Then, all the rules about what makes people feel safe and in connection with each other, like being able to read each other's physical attributes and eye contact and pheromones and the sense that people are really present, all that stuff comes into play.

[00:05:22] Karen: And I think the multitasking, in whatever way, like the distance that I'm creating by being less attentive.

[00:05:28] Paul: There's two terms that I want to throw out here because they're useful to think about one of them you've kind of touched on, which is this idea of continuous partial attention. Which is really the thing that the modern world has trained us to do, which is I'm just on my phone while I'm doing this thing while I'm also noticing this thing while this other thing or the, yeah, you're not actually giving your full attention to any of those things.

[00:05:47] Paul: And then what you're kind of pointing at is the effect that that actually can have on relational space on relationship and that the second term I want to introduce is this term called ambiguous loss. Ambiguous loss was originally introduced in psychology to talk about the, you know, often a grieving state where it's a things like the person is in a coma from which they're unlikely to recover, but they have not passed.

[00:06:11] Paul: So it's ambiguous whether or not you have lost them yet. And we actually see this a bunch more and more in relationship work. Where it's the, well, the person is physically present with me, but their attention is elsewhere. Or, you know, I go into my boss's office to say, Hey, could we talk about a thing? And they go, uh huh.

[00:06:27] Paul: And they never stop typing on their computer or look up from their screen. And you say, could we have a conversation? They're like, Oh, I'm listening. Right. And it's ambiguous whether or not the person is present. I think both of those things. Are starting to point at what you're talking about, that cognitively, we may be able to manage some of these things, but relationally, we often don't realize what the impact of how we are splitting our attention is.

[00:06:54] Paul: And if we're there to do work that requires working in the relational space, then I think that's a clue that we want to minimize the amount of distraction that we have around us to be as present as we can.

[00:07:09] Karen: I think that's very well said, and I think the ambiguity, like it's not only that I don't know, and maybe you're paying attention or maybe you're not, but because I can't tell that you're paying attention, I don't feel safe. And so it's about safety and vulnerability. And I actually think the vulnerability feeds us in being less present too.

[00:07:29] Karen: If we don't feel safe. We feel safer behind our screen. We feel safer without the eye contact. We feel safer if I zoom into the meeting instead of being present and then somebody starts screaming, well, I can just turn off. Nobody will know that I just turned it off. So I'm safer. And I do think that's true.

[00:07:44] Karen: I think we are safer, but remember that vulnerability is the fuel of connection. And so if we're eliminating vulnerability, maybe we need to do that, but I'm going to encourage us to do it knowing that we're making a trade off. 

[00:07:58] Paul: Absolutely. 

Intentional Participation

[00:07:59] Paul: I think being conscious of that trade off is really what we're asking people to do.

[00:08:03] Paul: Like, to really think about, okay, is this a meeting that I could attend or work that I could be part of? Where it isn't going to require vulnerability, isn't going to require connection. It's purely cognitive and I can put enough cognitive effort into it. I mean, I will say that like the cognitive, not cognitive is not the only divider because when you're super distracted and somebody says, so great so that means that we'll earn this return on this finance investment and this thing, the other thing. 

[00:08:30] Paul: And you find yourself going, wait a minute, hold on. Could you run through that again? I wasn't paying attention. Kind of thing. I think the impacts are less drastic, but I think that that's really what we're asking people to do.

[00:08:41] Paul: And I think that's why it's also just to jump to the other side real quick here. This is why it's really important for organizers to be clear about the agenda, about what people are going to be doing. Because if I don't know, is this just, you're going to share some information and show some slides and move on.

[00:09:00] Paul: Or is this, you're actually going to ask me to dig into the five things that we really need to deal with this year. And you want my perspective and you want me to be vulnerable to say, here's how it's not going to work. Like I need to know that. In order for me to make a good decision about how I'm going to engage.

[00:09:19] Karen: So when I'm thinking about how do I want to engage, and of course I spend a lot of my life facilitating meetings, but I also spend a fair bit of my life being invited to meetings. And when I'm thinking about how to engage, the first thing I want to think about is why would I go to the meeting? Like, what is the point of me being there?

[00:09:37] Karen: And I don't mean that in a judgmental way. I mean, in a, like, what is the thing we're trying to do? So, am I there either because I want to be or somebody else wants me to be? Is the point of me being there that I'm going to take in information? And how complex is that information? To your point, Paul, even if it's purely cognitive, it may still take my full attention.

[00:09:56] Karen: We're doing calculus. I might want to really be there, in a different way than if we're announcing the next week's schedule that's also going to be printed. Is it that my input is wanted and they want me to be thinking about things? Maybe I'm there for the whole meeting because there's five minutes when actually they want my input and I need to be present in a different way for that five minutes.

[00:10:16] Karen: But for the rest of it, I'm mostly just hanging out waiting my turn, actually. Could be a thing. Is it that there's a relational piece going on? Are we exploring and, you know, out of the work I do often, I'm coming in to teach so if people are deciding whether to come to something, the point of them being there is actually to take in and process information and often to practice it in relational spaces that are deeper, that kind of thing.

[00:10:41] Karen: If I know why I'm trying to be there, then my next question is, why do I not want to be there fully? 

[00:10:48] Paul: Exactly where I was going to go. And I think it gets to that. Like, I think when we find ourselves going, I'd rather do this other thing. I'd rather split my attention. I'd rather not be here.

[00:10:56] Paul: I'd rather not physically be present and that kind of thing. I think getting really curious about that is useful because there can be very good reasons for that. But we want to be, again, intentional about it. It could be, Hey, you know, there's this decision making meeting that's happening that I'm part of this group, but it's a two hour drive each way for me to be there and I've got other stuff going on that I'm not willing to trade that four hours worth of driving time for.

[00:11:22] Paul: And so I go, okay, yeah. Is it going to be less than ideal for me to not be in the room? Yes. Is it going to have a huge impact on the group if I'm not there? No, I'm willing to take that on. Or, hey, I'm not feeling well right now. I would prefer not to spread my germs to other people. Even if I could go, then great.

[00:11:41] Paul: But then if it's more of a, like, I don't want to be in the room with these three people because my last six interactions with them have gone sideways. You know, that's different. And it still may be a case of like, I decide that I'm, maybe I'm not going to attend the meeting at all, right? Maybe I'm going to opt out.

[00:11:58] Paul: And I think as long as we're clear eyed about those kinds of things, we can make good decisions. I think what happens is that we, and it is a thing that I always tell people in classes that I teach and work that I do, right? I say, look, you're adults. I trust you to make informed decisions about what's best for you in your particular situation.

[00:12:17] Paul: Here is some information that I want to give you. And then you get to decide. So I will ask for things like, could you minimize the distractions, that are in your space when we're doing a meeting online, for example, I say, you know, and I don't specifically say like, mute your phone, close your slack, close your door, tell people that you're not going to be around.

[00:12:35] Paul: I ask people to minimize those distractions, recognizing there are some things that you need to be attentive to. If there is another person in your household whom you are caring for and need to pay attention to. If there is something urgent going on at work that you need to be monitoring, I trust you to make that decision.

[00:12:52] Paul: I'm still going to nudge people in a particular direction and I'm going to give them for information. So I think what I'm really encouraging people to do is. Make a decision, but be clear about why you're making the decision. Like be intentional about it. 

[00:13:05] Karen: And very much like in the, can I be late episode where my first instinct was to say, nope, you can't.

[00:13:11] Karen: Can I come on zoom instead? My answer in the end is you can, if it's the right choice for you, because I trust you to make that choice. And I'm going to ask you to notice that that will mean you'll have less good connection than an in person connection. That you will possibly miss out on some things because there's stuff that happens in the room and maybe before we turn the camera on, that kind of thing.

[00:13:34] Karen: And that the rest of the group will not get as much benefit from your participation as if you were there in person. And then we can take that to the next step of, for example, people who do better if they have some kind of fidget in their hands. I am in this group, by the way. So there are times that I'm like, okay, I need to be at the meeting and they want me to pay attention.

[00:13:53] Karen: And it's especially easy to do on Zoom where I can hide my hands, I will admit, I do this, but yeah, Paul's just revealed his fidget spinner to me as we're doing this. But I also have to think about like, so what is that? So there are some games on my phone that are super simple. They take very little of my thought and attention.

[00:14:12] Karen: I can do those games. There are some others like I, I know where, Oh, if I play that one, I'm gonna have to think about it, which is great. If I'm not trying to do anything else, but I can't multitask. Or knitting. I can knit just rags with no pattern. I don't really have to think about it. They do very little degrade of my cognitive attention abilities.

[00:14:32] Karen: On the other hand, if I'm knitting something for which I need a pattern, I can't get away with that on a call or on a meeting because I'm really then not present. Like I'm really not going to take in information. So this is, that thinking about what will make it present for me and also what impact will it have on everybody else?

[00:14:49] Karen: So if I bring my knitting to an in person meeting, how does that feel to people? And again, my little dishcloth, which is one little ball of yarn and super simple, may be different than an afghan that's spread across the two people next to me. Like, what is that impact? 

[00:15:04] Karen: So it is the same to self as I'm deciding how I'm going to participate. Why do I need to be there at all? Maybe I don't. I mean, maybe the other things are compelling enough that I just shouldn't go and then my partial presence or coming and going or whatever doesn't impact everybody else because I'm not there.

[00:15:20] Karen: Maybe that's better for everybody. Or maybe it's just better for me and that's what I'm going to do because it's better for me. That's okay. I'm all on board with that, or maybe there's some other reason, and it makes sense for me to be present on Zoom or present with a fidget or present on Zoom with a simple phone game that I'm playing or whatever the thing is.

[00:15:42] Karen: But that I've thought about what is the impact of my less than full attention and what's the impact on me with whatever I'm doing that makes me less than fully present and attentive. Do I still get what I need to get? Is it still useful in the way that it needs to be useful? And also what is the impact on everybody else?

[00:16:01] Karen: Including the unconscious impact, including the reduction in safety that always happens if we are less available to the person we're with. 

[00:16:10] Paul: And the thing that I would add to that is that when we're intentional about that, and anytime that we're doing something that is even slightly outside the norm, right?

[00:16:19] Paul: As you talked about, we have this norm of attention and present means sitting quietly and not saying anything and not moving, right? That's kind of a thing that's baked into our heads. Anytime we're doing something that is different from that, we have reasons for it and it can be really useful just to articulate those, for example, the knitting dishcloth thing can be really useful.

[00:16:38] Paul: You know, I'm actually able to pay more attention when I'm doing this thing with my hands, because it actually helps my brain track the verbal and all of the other things that are going on, letting the group know that, right. Being able to say, Hey, I'm going to be working on this thing. It's something that helps me concentrate because it's very easy for other people to read that as you're doing this other thing, instead of being fully present.

[00:17:01] Paul: You're actually doing it to help you be fully present. And that's the sort of thing where if you and I've worked together for a while, for example, I might already know that, but anytime you're doing things like that, Hey, I'm actually going to take this. I'm going to not be present because this is what's going on in my personal life and I can't drive there to do the thing when we've made that decision consciously, then letting the rest of the group know often will ameliorate some of those relational impacts.

[00:17:27] Paul: It's putting that out there in the space and giving them the information. So people go, Oh, okay. That makes sense to me. Or, Oh, I had no idea that like that actually helps you concentrate. Wow. You know, sort of thing. So I think when we're intentional, then we have the opportunity to share. Now that's information that's in the relational space and that allows us to work better, even better together.

Neurodivergence and Participation

[00:17:48] Karen: And I want to name specifically one other category where this shows up. And this is in the space of neurodivergence, whether there's a diagnosis or not. I don't care, actually. Some people naturally do eye contact really well and love it. Some people do loud and big speeches in various ways and find that completely comfortable.

[00:18:07] Karen: Those things are not the same for everybody. So, another thing that's really useful to share as a participant is I'm not really an eye contact person. I do it sometimes because I know it matters to other people, but it costs me. It makes it actually harder for me to attend and engage. So if I'm not making eye contact, that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm not listening or not engaged, it just means I'm sort of regulating what works well for me, that kind of thing.

[00:18:31] Karen: So whether it's sound sensitivity or eye contact or really whatever it is, I'm happy to say I think we are in a space where that kind of thing is far more accepted. There's more awareness of it, and we can even increase that by naming it, as facilitators naming it, and also naming it as participants when I have a need around whatever the thing is. 

[00:18:53] Karen: Or I'm going to participate in a different way than you might expect in whatever way. I encourage us all to be receptive to that when it's said and to make the effort to say it when it's true. 

[00:19:04] Paul: A hundred percent. 

Conclusion and Recap

[00:19:05] Paul: So just to track where we've been today, we've covered a lot of ground, but fundamentally we're talking about decisions that we make as participants in terms of attending a meeting in person or virtually, how we are choosing to bring our attention to that space, where we're choosing to split it, recognizing that particularly when we're doing relational work.

[00:19:25] Paul: That divided attention can have a real impact on relationship. As you said, like when we're trying to have lengthy, deep conversations, there's a very different impact on that to me choosing to wash dishes or work on something else while we're doing that versus when I'm in a meeting at work where seven slides are going to be read at me and then there will be no time for Q and A.

[00:19:49] Paul: So what we really are trying to do here is help people understand how do we make good decisions about the level of involvement, the level of attention we want to bring to a particular meeting, things to consider there. And then, really to be conscious of it, to say, I'm making these choices for these reasons, and then potentially sharing those reasons, letting people know, here's what's going on, here's why I've got this fidget spinner with me, here is why I'm not present in the room, but I'm doing this thing here.

[00:20:18] Paul: Because that can often mitigate some of those unfortunate relational impacts, and in some cases can help us work even better together. 

[00:20:26] Karen: That's going to do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Karen Gimnig. 

[00:20:30] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis. And this has been Employing Differences.