Introduction to Employing Differences

[00:00:00] Paul: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals. 

[00:00:08] Karen: I'm Karen Gimnig. 

[00:00:09] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis. 

[00:00:11] Karen: Each episode we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, should I stop this? 

Understanding Conflict and Power Dynamics

[00:00:18] Paul: What we're really talking about here today is when we're in a conflict into disagreement, and we're noticing that we might need to put a stop to something, right?

[00:00:27] Paul: There's a behavior, there's a thing that's happening. We have some authority, we have some power, we have something that we could use a tool that, an implement, that we could feel, that we could wield in this situation. You know, that isn't relational necessarily, and should we use it. This is really a continuation of last episode where we talked about these sort of three broad categories, and this is the fourth of approaches or responses we might have to when there's something happening.

[00:00:56] Paul: That's a disagreement. That's a conflict where there's a behavior occurring. There's something that we wish weren't, and what might we do about it? We talked last time about being able to just kind of tolerate it and say, like, I can come to terms with it, like it's not gonna change. We talked about doing relationship repair to sort of do the deep work in the space between to help, strengthen the relationship with the other person.

[00:01:18] Paul: We talked about sort of changing our own behavior, like how are we gonna respond when the thing comes up and that all three of those are useful things to do that can often, help foster relationship but don't necessarily give you any guarantee that the behavior is gonna stop.

When to Use Authority in Conflict

[00:01:32] Paul: Today we're really talking about that fourth response, which Karen sort of has labeled as Power Over, but using whatever sort of consequences we have at hand. To really try to put a stop to that behavior and recognizing that this always will damage the relationship and that sometimes that's a useful thing to do.

[00:01:51] Karen: Yeah, so this is one of those things that when you're a relationship person, like I am every like that sounds like when I say, well, Power Over will always damage the relationship. People think that I'm telling you, never, ever do it. And I always follow it up with, and sometimes it's worth it. Because there absolutely are cases where we wanna do that.

[00:02:11] Karen: I work a lot with co-housing groups, so I talk about if somebody just never pays their HOA dues and that's gonna in the end cause major financial problems, possibly bankruptcy for the HOA. As much as we don't like to enforce things on each other, that's one you probably gotta, even if it damages the relationship.

[00:02:29] Karen: You gotta get the money outta that property somehow, which probably means putting a lien on their house, that kind of thing. So that's a pretty hefty kind of consequence to wield. And it's not that I would do it the first time somebody missed a payment, but if, you know, in the end there are things that are worth it.

[00:02:44] Karen: And that's an easy example 'cause can be big dollars. But I think it applies in a lot of other situations as well. And often we get to this because we've tried more relational approaches and the behavior persists, but we get to a place where either for my own sanity, health, whatever, or for the needs of the group, because the behavior's impacting somebody else, that it's time to make it stop.

[00:03:12] Karen: And we begin to then use whatever tools we have. Now in business, often, you know, there's a boss and like, then there's a hierarchy built in and it's super easy to go to that. I think it's harder in more consensus based spaces that are a little more egalitarian, where you don't actually have authority.

[00:03:29] Karen: But even in those spaces, people will say, well, this is the rule, so therefore you have to follow it. And can't we enforce this rule and can't we, you know, assess a fine? Or what can we do to enforce a rule? As much as we feel icky saying it, and in fact, nobody wants to be the enforcer, nobody actually wants to hold that power in those kinds of spaces.

[00:03:45] Karen: The fact is those things exist and even if they don't formally exist, just social pressure and that kind of thing, we can often change someone else's behavior. And so the question is, is it worth it? So even if I know the behavior's wrong. I know for sure I wanna stop it and I see that it's damaging everybody else.

[00:04:04] Karen: I still wanna pause and say to myself, is the behavior doing more damage than the power over move that I am considering to stop it? And if the answer is yes, then I'm all for the power over move. I think there are times to use it. Just don't then be surprised that it damaged the relationship. 

[00:04:22] Paul: Yeah, it's the surprise part. 

Real-Life Examples of Power Over

[00:04:24] Paul: Alright, so I mean, I'm thinking about a situation where I've had to do this. One that comes to mind was I was, part of a volunteer organization. We were running an event. We were doing a thing, and I had a volunteer who was just, not doing the job very well, but they were also doing a bunch of things that were just really impacting a lot of the other people.

[00:04:43] Paul: And so eventually I got to this point 'cause I was living in tolerate like that, that response that we were talking about. And I realized eventually that like, and that's my default for a lot of these things. I often go there and go, I could live with, this isn't such a big deal, but what I realized was the impact it was having on the other people running the event and the other people adjacent to the group and things like that.

[00:05:04] Paul: And I was in charge, right? I needed to do something about it because of the impact that it was having. And so. I basically said to the person, so here's what I need you to do in order to move forward with it. And that person was not, you know, I got a very flippant response. I did not, there was no relationship repair going on in that.

[00:05:24] Paul: And so I just cut the whole thing off and I just said, yeah. Okay, great. Thank you for your time and I'm gonna ask somebody else to do this. So you're off the project and that person, I won't say, never spoke to me again. But that definitely damaged the relationship and I was okay with it. I still look back on it and I actually realize I should have gone to that move sooner because of the damage that they were doing to the rest of the organization and the rest of what was going on.

[00:05:50] Paul: And I think that's actually one of the things. As much as we see these enforcement mechanisms or power and authority, like those are really prevalent in culturally, like we see them all the time, they're there, they're tools that are at hand and they're like the first thing we think of. But I think often they're the last thing we reach for, even when they would be useful to do, because we don't wanna be seen as the bad person.

[00:06:16] Paul: We don't wanna be seen as the enforcer. We don't want to, we really wish someone else would do something about this. And so I actually think that, and this is, you know, something that, that we occasionally are in danger of because we talk so much about this relational work and we talk about all these things about how to, you know, how to build strong relationships to do the other things.

Balancing Authority and Relationships

[00:06:35] Paul: I think we sometimes marginalize the use of authority in relatively effective and humane ways, in an organization, if there is someone who is doing things that are not okay, that are inappropriate, that are creating a hostile environment of the workplace and things like that, there are ways to fire people that fundamentally maintain people's dignity, that allow them, some agency that allow them to work through this.

[00:07:02] Paul: We don't have to be cruel when we use authority. We can be humane, we can still, reach into that space between, and there are ways of doing that that not a lot of us have experience doing. 

[00:07:15] Karen: Yeah. And if I was gonna give one piece of advice for how to do it, kindly and well with agency and all of that, it leans into something you were just saying, which is do it early enough that you're not yet full of rage.

[00:07:31] Karen: If you wait, well, they definitely deserve it because they did this and they did this and they did, and it was terrible. And they're an awful person. At that point, you got a lot of your own work to do before you can do this within your values, and I do think that's a frame to give. It is within my values, so I still value personal agency in other people.

[00:07:52] Karen: I still value respect. I still value kindness. I still value community and connection and all of those things. So if I'm holding all of that and I still think that stopping this behavior is enough of a priority, that I'm willing to pay some price for that, which may be you lost a volunteer. I mean, maybe they went off mad and didn't ever help out with anything again.

[00:08:15] Karen: Or maybe they, you know, like there's a price to pay for that, and if I'm willing to pay that price, then I think this is the right option. And it's the one I'm gonna reach for last. Like the assumption that as a relationship person, I don't like this one. It's true, I don't. But if I'm gonna have to get there, get there while I still am in a place to do it kindly, where I still am in a place to be thoughtful of what the other person's needs are and, you know, all that other stuff that I value.

[00:08:45] Karen: 'Cause once I get into anger, it's so, so much harder. 

[00:08:48] Paul: We talked about this before because using positional authority, using consequences, using coercive power, any of these things can be a really emotional hot button issue, both for the person who's doing it and obviously the person who's on the receiving end of it as well.

[00:09:05] Paul: You need to find ways to calm yourself down. While you're doing it. I think that point around, you know, you can't do this while you're angry. Now there are also times where you may actually recognize like, wow, I'm really angry because this thing this person has done is, is so not okay. But then make sure it's still the right thing to do what, when you're not super angry about it.

[00:09:27] Paul: And don't confront them in that way, right? To be able to say, great. So you know that that thing yesterday. Was not okay. And that this is not the first time we've had this conversation. So you are not gonna be part of this organization anymore. Let's figure out how that's gonna work. You need to be able to, and as you say, I really like the idea of coming to it within your values, 

[00:09:48] Paul: if there is sometimes the degree on the other, this is the flip side of like, how would I want this to, if it were happening to me, right? Like, let's think about that. Now that may not be exactly what they want because they are a different person than you. But it's like if I were gonna be treated as a human being, because we do, when we use our authority to try to make some behavior stop or to guarantee that, they're not in the environment anymore, so this is gonna change.

[00:10:13] Paul: That kind of thing. There's still a person, right? There's still something on the other side. Right. To be able to come to that space of saying, and we talked a lot about how like, and not, make it personal. Right? Look, it's not that you are a terrible person. Don't say that part. You're a terrible person.

[00:10:28] Paul: We never should have hired you like that, all that stuff. But being able to say, like, to point at the behavior and to say, this does not work here, doesn't work for me, it doesn't work for the org. Like whatever it is. Being able to point at that and say, so I'm going to use my legitimate authority to, to do whatever, right?

[00:10:47] Paul: Or I'm not gonna engage with you anymore. I'm gonna choose not to. Come to these, you know, these meetings that you're running anymore, whatever it is. Like there's a lot of things. This is a lot of parallels with a lot of the boundary drawing stuff that we talked about before. It's just that you happen to have, in this particular situation, a consequence that you can enforce around this boundary that may be bigger than you are and more comfortable with.

Parenting and Power Dynamics

[00:11:12] Karen: And I'm just, I spent a lot of my adult life parenting, and we don't talk a lot about that on the show, but I'm gonna bring a piece of it into this one because I think it is in the adult child relationships that we learn power over. It's why it's the first thing we think of. The first experience most of us have with behavior modification was because some adult enforced something upon us.

[00:11:32] Karen: And if you're my age, there's a good chance that there was a timeout or a spanking, or a slapped hand, or a harsh word. That was completely normal in terms of how we parented at that time and since we tend to parent the way that we were parented, it gets passed down generation to generation. And I think that the sort of creative approaches of if I'm not gonna power over, if that's not gonna be my go-to, how do I prioritize the relationship?

[00:11:57] Karen: It leads us in parenting to things like helping a child who doesn't understand the consequences of their actions because they're a child, which is the same by the way, as if someone who's working for me doesn't understand the consequences of their action because they don't have access to all the information, right?

[00:12:13] Karen: It's a, one is brain development and one is in information access, but it's the same problem. They don't know the consequences. If we point to helping them understand, if we rely on the relationship with them, if we trust them to care and have compassion, which even very young children do, and we go about it that way, we're gonna end up with more kind and caring and compassionate kids who don't then turn to power over because they have so many more relationship skills.

[00:12:39] Karen: And people will say, yeah, but what if they run in front of a truck? And I'm gonna say, this is the exact example of. Damaging the relationship by powering over the 2-year-old, running out into the street decidedly does less damage than letting them run in front of the truck. So for sure I would do it, but that for me is an image of when is it okay to power over.

[00:12:59] Karen: For me, the picture is the 2-year-old running in front of a truck. And then I do, and for any other case where I have the energy, where I have the capacity, and I. Tried really hard to have that capacity with my kids 'cause boy, they were the most important thing in the world to me. That when I can, I'm gonna reach for the relationship first.

[00:13:20] Karen: And when there's a truck coming, I'm gonna yank 'em out of the way. 

Making Decisions and Repairing Relationships

[00:13:23] Paul: The thing that I will also point to is that like the consequence thing and the power over thing isn't necessarily final. Like we've been talking about it in terms of like, this person's fired, they're no longer part of the community.

[00:13:34] Paul: They're, you know, we're kicking them out sort of thing. But it also shows up like sort of in small moments where it's just like we need to make like. Normally we would make this decision as a group and I would consult with all of y'all and we would do this other thing. And we're not doing that right now.

[00:13:49] Paul: I'm making the decision we're moving forward kind of thing. Like that's a power over move. Right. And if as if you're the boss, right? You have the authority legitimately to do that. And we've talked about that before and that may be the right move, right? It's like, great. I get that. You would like to discuss till the cows come home.

[00:14:05] Paul: The right way to do this process and you'd like to design this and the thing and the other thing. We don't have time for that. Here's the process we're gonna follow. I'm gonna lay it out. We're gonna do it this way, right? I've heard what I've heard and I'm gonna make my best stab at it.

[00:14:16] Paul: And we're gonna go and then recognize, as we've talked about before, you have the option at that point to do some repair work afterwards to say, I know that I kind of came in a little heavy handed on this. Or like, I know that normally we would discuss these sorts of things. I wanna check with you 'cause I know you need to know you did damage, right?

[00:14:35] Paul: You used your authority, you, you used power over. You need to know that there was some damage there to relationship and get curious about it. And that's where you can go into repair. There are times, but, but do recognize that you're making an assessment of there is gonna be a small amount of damage and I'm willing to take that on.

[00:14:53] Paul: But you may be wrong, right? It's, you do need to ask yourself, if I am firm about this. Do I think people are gonna quit, and if I do think they're gonna quit, am I okay with that? Like we're really talking about being aware of the potential consequences and being okay with it. Being able to go, given all of these other things.

[00:15:15] Paul: This is still my best option. I don't like it. It's not perfect. I can't guarantee that things are gonna go the way that I want to. I know how I might mitigate some of this stuff, but I also need to be okay with it. And in the case of. The volunteer who, who I fired and it damaged the relationship. That person basically stopped volunteering for stuff and I was okay with that.

[00:15:35] Karen: And to bring this point that you're making a repair into a less hierarchical environment, it happens a lot in communities, for example, that there is delegated authority. So I have the authority to make a decision. I may need to make it on a timeframe. I may need to go ahead and do it, and I may make the decision in a way that somebody else isn't gonna be happy about, and I do it knowingly.

[00:15:56] Karen: That's an example of a power over move, not quite in response to a behavior, but you know, it plays and in the same way, if I just do it and wait for them to come and complain at me and whatever, and then say, well, it was mine. I had the delegated authority. Well, that's gonna kill the relationship. I mean, it's gonna be bad, but if I go to them and say, Hey, I did this thing.

[00:16:17] Karen: I know it wasn't what you wanted. This is why I'm happy to talk about it, then we can begin to do the repair. It doesn't mean they're not unhappy. It doesn't mean I didn't power over that. There is a way forward. 

[00:16:29] Paul: Yeah. Making a bid for repair is always useful. You just may need to be okay with them not accepting that bid.

Conclusion and Key Takeaways

[00:16:34] Paul: So to really talk about what we've covered here today. We've talked about the thing that we talk about maybe the least on the show, which is about recognizing that there are times when we have authority that is useful for us to use. It may be the right tool for the job, and we need to recognize that if we are gonna reach for that, there's gonna be consequences to the relationship.

[00:16:56] Paul: But then really thinking about how can we do that well, how can we do that skillfully? The notion of, you know, we wanna make sure that we've tried other approaches, you know, that we've talked about before, trying things like tolerating or behavior response or relationship repair. We've tried those things and recognizing that when we reach for authority, when we reach for our power, that we wanna try to do it in a ways that are within our values, right?

[00:17:20] Paul: That still sort of prioritize the things that are most important for us in terms of meaning and recognizing that. Hey, there may be a consequence here that we don't like. We need to be okay with that 'cause we can't predict how the other person's gonna respond to it. We may have the option for repair, we may not.

[00:17:38] Paul: And we need to know how to use this tool and we need to know how to use it skillfully, but it should honestly be the last thing we reach for, 

[00:17:47] Karen: And that's gonna do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Karen Gimnig. 

[00:17:51] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis. And this has been Employing Differences.