Introduction and Episode Question

[00:00:01] Paul: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

[00:00:08] Karen: I'm Karen Gimnig.

[00:00:09] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis.

[00:00:11] Karen: Each episode we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, how will this meeting work?

The Importance of Pre-Meeting Planning

[00:00:19] Paul: So this is yet another episode where Karen and I get to talk about our experience as facilitators working with groups to have more effective meetings to get things done, to get decisions made. And we wanna dig into today, is really around the things that happen before the meeting, right?

[00:00:36] Paul: The planning that goes into it. Because fundamentally, our perspective is when you're getting a group of people together to do something, you wanna make good use of that time. That when you bring people together into a meeting. That is incredibly expensive. However you choose to account for that in people's energy, in people's time.

[00:00:58] Paul: But actually in people's salaries, if this is in an organization, meetings are nontrivial costs. And unfortunately if we just expect that we can show up to a meeting and make whatever we need to have happen, happen. We're likely to be disappointed. And so what Karen and I wanna dig into is a little bit about how we actually help people figure out how will this meeting work so that we get what we need out of it, and that we make good use of people's time, energy, attention.

Facilitator's Role in Effective Meetings

[00:01:31] Karen: Yeah, and I think just fair warning here, when I do facilitator trainings and people come and then. Tell me about what's changed as a result of their taking the training. One of the things they say absolutely consistently is this is a lot more work than the way I used to do it. And I think it's true.

[00:01:49] Karen: I think that very often in the meetings that we have, both in our nonprofit organizations, our community spaces in our workspaces, that the job of the facilitator seems to begin when the meeting begins. And that is way too late. Because of what Paul was saying, that if you don't put in good planning, you don't get good and effective meetings.

[00:02:12] Karen: And it really is as much about what you do in advance. And I'm gonna say, I think that the most important thing that gets missed is to sit down and really spend time with the people who are trying to get things done at the meeting. Hopefully that is not largely the facilitator. Hopefully the facilitator is there to literally facilitate.

[00:02:31] Karen: To make things easier for the other people who are the ones trying to make things happen. So maybe they're bringing a proposal. Maybe the whole meeting is about one thing. Maybe it's about several small things. The part of the prep that we're talking about today is relevant either if the whole meeting's about one thing, then it's about the whole meeting.

[00:02:50] Karen: If there's five topics on the meeting, then this recommendation applies to each of those topics individually. You have to do the work times five. And it's about, okay, so who are the players who're trying to make things happen? 

Understanding Meeting Objectives

[00:03:01] Karen: And I need to sit down with them in advance and say, what is it that you're trying to make happen at this meeting?

[00:03:07] Karen: What is the thing that you hope will be true afterwards that wasn't true at the beginning? And what are your stakes in that and where do you expect the difficulties to be? And what kinds of disagreements or obstacles are you aware of? And where are you in the process? Do you have enough information to make a recommendation?

[00:03:24] Karen: Do you need information? Are you looking for input? Are you trying to push a particular goal? Like what is it that you're hoping will come out of it? What are your stakes? What matters to you? So that I can take all of that information and then plan meeting activities that will support it, that will help that thing happen.

[00:03:45] Karen: And the more that I can start the meeting with clarity about what do we already know? What do we not know, what can't we know? Are we gonna have to make a decision without knowing things that we would like to know, but they're just not knowable for whatever reason? And are we generally aligned?

[00:04:00] Karen: Are we way spread apart? Does everybody have all the information or are we in a case where a couple of people have information? And the point is to make it so everybody has the information. Where are we starting and where are we hoping to get to on all of those planes is super important before I can even begin to make a decision about how we should spend our time together.

[00:04:19] Paul: That what do we want to be true when the meeting is done? That isn't true. Now, I think is one of the best ways of framing this idea of outcomes, right? Because I talk with people about this all the time where it's like, I mean, I had a thing a couple of weeks ago where a CTO reached out to me and said, oh, I wanna do a workshop about blah, blah, blah.

[00:04:35] Paul: And I said, so what do you wanna get out of that? 'Cause nobody wants a workshop, right? What they want is the result of having done it, right? What is that? Because if I'm clearer about that, I can make better decisions about how we think we can get there. Right? Because that's where then I can start leveraging my expertise to say where, you know, if somebody says, oh yeah, we want someone to come in and deliver a talk and do a thing that's gonna boost morale, all right?

[00:05:00] Paul: And turn around our attrition problem. And I was like, I don't think a one hour keynote is gonna do that for you. But if what you want is, you know, then we can get into it. So we can start, I think for you and I like being clear on outcomes is really important for us because people who don't think about this whole lot may have a very skewed idea of what they can accomplish, right?

[00:05:23] Paul: This is why we get into this, this place of like, well, we're just gonna all come into the room not having done any preparation, and we're gonna get to a decision in no time at all, even though this is a super contentious topic and only three people really understand the nuances of it. I mean, it sounds ridiculous when I say it that way, but that is kind of what we see.

[00:05:43] Paul: So part of what you and I are trying to do, and some of this is to get people to slow down a little bit and just to think about, well, what is it that I'm really trying to accomplish here? What are we really trying to accomplish as a group? What might get in the way of that? Like where is it gonna be smooth?

[00:05:57] Paul: Where is it not? I think that one of the things that is really useful to do is not just to take one person's word for it about what's going on. I know that I've run into problems with this before where, you know, I've been working with the chair, you know, of an organization.

[00:06:13] Paul: We're gonna have a meeting and we're gonna do a thing. And unfortunately, like they're the only person who I really end up talking to. And then I get in, we plan based around the stuff that they've told me, we get into the room and I discover all kinds of new stuff about the group that if I had taken the time to actually sit down with the other members of this board.

[00:06:33] Paul: To figure out, well, what's your perspective on this thing? Like what do you think is gonna be, they're like, I could have planned a lot better and we probably would've made much better use of people's time. Or if we just really let people know ahead of time, this is what we're gonna be digging into, and for this agenda item, this is the outcome that we're trying to get to.

[00:06:52] Paul: Like where we're trying to go with that.

[00:06:54] Karen: And I think one of the questions that comes up is, well, how many people do I meet with? You know, if we're having a gathering for a company that's 60 people, do I have to meet with all 60 people? Probably not. But I will say I've done a workshop for a board of 10, and I did meet with all 10.

[00:07:11] Karen: Other times community meetings, often five different people say, Hey, I've got this topic I wanna put on the agenda. I probably meet with those five. And in communities, people tend to know each other pretty well. So if I say to them, okay, so who else feels passionately about this? They usually give me pretty good data about that.

[00:07:28] Karen: Or I may already know, frankly, because I'm facilitating within a group that I know well. And maybe I meet with the five people who have brought topics and three of those topics have another person whose perspective is gonna be important to me. So a first thing is deciding who is it that I need to meet with?

[00:07:44] Karen: And one of those meetings may tell you, oh, I need to have another one. But I wanna be clear that. In these meetings, we're talking about them as though they are about getting information that these other people have and the facilitator doesn't have. And that's true. You wanna do that, but also I am very much in my facilitator hat in that meeting because what I find is true more often than not is that the person who wants to use the meeting time for a thing, the person who's calling the meeting, or the person who's asking for that chunk of the meeting to happen isn't clear in their own head about what their objective is.

[00:08:22] Karen: Hasn't really thought through, okay, in order to get from here to there. This is a rational way to go about it. Hasn't maybe thought through. There's likely to be some opposition to this. They may be way in rose colored glasses. So more than once I've said to someone that thing that you want, that you think you're gonna get a decision about.

[00:08:43] Karen: I'm pretty sure you're gonna get a lot of pushback. And that's not me arguing with them. That's me helping them be realistic about what's present in the group so that they don't come in thinking, okay, we're gonna have a 10 minute quick conversation. I'm gonna present, we're gonna call for consensus.

[00:08:58] Karen: Everybody's gonna say yes, done. And then be startled and pulled off kilter when that is so not what happens, like if I can help them make realistic projections, predictions about what's likely to be there. Okay, so there's likely to be some opposition. Is this still the direction you wanna go? Like how do you wanna work with that opposition, that kind of stuff.

[00:09:17] Karen: So the extent to which that meeting is about me getting information, yes, that's part of it, but it's even more important that they are getting clarity in their own mind. And I have a role in helping them do that. It's not that I'm telling them what they should think or what they should do.

[00:09:37] Karen: It's me asking the questions and prompting the things and maybe saying a few provocative things that help them get in their own head to what they actually believe, what they really want, and really accessing data that they probably have, that they're just ignoring. 'Cause we all do that, to get realistic about what's the context and where is the rest of the group and all of that.

[00:09:58] Karen: And just that, even if it didn't tell me anything, I didn't know before, that process is gonna make them more effective in the meeting, which is gonna make the whole meeting more effective.

[00:10:10] Paul: Yeah. That consistently the piece of feedback that I get when I help people, you know, facilitate meetings is that the preparation that I helped them go through and helping them get clear about what it is they were actually trying to do, that that was the most useful part in a lot of ways. Yes, there's stuff that I do in the room and there's the dynamics.

[00:10:28] Paul: But starting it off with, let's think through like, I'm gonna be a good thinking partner with you about this. That that's the feedback that I get from people who bring me in, that that's super useful. Right. And oftentimes it's just I give them a set of prompts to respond to. And then I talk through their answers with them where I go, oh, interesting.

[00:10:46] Paul: So like, tell me a little bit more about this. But it's like, I want them to have thought, hey, what is the most obvious objection to this thing that you're gonna bring up? And if they haven't thought about that at all, then they're really gonna be unprepared when we get into the room and the most obvious objection comes up. And going back to the thing you said earlier about, you know, people suddenly start to realize, wow, this is a lot of work. Yes. But what it is, is you are by thinking clearly about what you're trying to get out of this meeting or this part of this meeting, that's time you're investing.

[00:11:20] Paul: Makes it much more likely that you're gonna get a better result. And that's the way that I really encourage people to think about it, is don't underinvest in the planning of this meeting, make sure that you're clear about outcomes that you've signposted to people, what this is really gonna be about, that you've thought through what you need them to do ahead of time.

[00:11:40] Paul: That what you're gonna do when they don't actually do that ahead of time. All of these kinds of things, like think through that because that's gonna give you the best chance of really paying off the time that you're all gonna spend together.

Building Trust and Partnership

[00:11:51] Karen: So we've talked about the value of facilitator gets information so facilitator can make good choices going into the meeting, and we've talked about the participant, probably a leader of some sort or a leader of a group or whatever that we're talking to, that they get way more clarity.

[00:12:07] Karen: The other thing that happens in that meeting that is also really, really key is that some things happen in the relationship between those two. Which is largely to me about trust building. So when I have somebody who's, you know, super passionate and excited and they have a thing they really wanna have happen, especially if they're used to being in a leadership position, they're the CEO and they're used to being in charge, and I am asking them to trust me with this meeting. That's gonna feel strange to them. And I've actually had people that just couldn't work with me because they could not let go of that power and control. But what we want is for them to feel so confident that I am going to support a process that helps them get what they're trying to make happen. Not get their way and overpower other people, but that they're going to be represented, that they're going to have a chance to have their say that we're moving in the direction that will help them get what they actually want. That they are willing to seed to me that control. So I want them to show up in a meeting where they're not in charge, because I am, by the way, as a facilitator, feeling grounded, feeling safe, feeling confident, feeling comfortable, and not feeling like they have to micromanage me and interrupt me all the time and know everything that's going on.

[00:13:23] Karen: Like I want them to be able to relax and be a participant and be part of the conversation. Without the sort of defensiveness that people have when they're in super contentious environments and there's not a strong structure in a facilitator holding a process. So if I'm establishing that trust, and that means things like saying, so I don't know a hundred percent.

[00:13:44] Karen: I've got some other people to talk to, but I'm thinking about we might approach it this way. How'd that work for you? You know, if, if I change it dramatically, I'll come back to you, but we might use a spectrum here, or we might use a small group conversation or that kind of thing so that when I go about facilitating it in a way that's different than I call on the person and give them the microphone, they're not surprised or startled by that. And that they're ready to be supportive of the process and fully participate in the process.

[00:14:14] Paul: I do very, very similar things, right? That that process is about the information gathering, that it's also about the helping them think through it. But it's really about helping them see me as a partner to them that I'm very explicit about, you know, my job here is to support you in these ways. That doesn't always mean you're gonna get what you want, right?

[00:14:35] Paul: And there are times when that support looks like me going, I'm not sure that's gonna work. Or I think you're being a little over ambitious here, right? But they absolutely need to feel like I am there to help them, to assist them, to support them, that we are on the same team. That we're helping to move this forward.

[00:14:52] Paul: And so, often when I'm doing that, helping them think through that thought partnering. That's the effect that I'm trying to have, right? It's not just that I want them to have thought about it, I want them to experience me as someone who's really helping them to get what's needed here, which may not be exactly what it is that they want, and that they understand how we're gonna partner when we're in the meeting.

[00:15:15] Paul: What parts are they gonna seed to me? What parts am I gonna involve them in? Because there oftentimes are I like, yeah, I'm not just gonna do this. You've gotta stand up and say the thing, or I need you to, I'm gonna put you on the spot around this. Hey, when this thing that you said is really important doesn't come up, is it okay if I remind you about it in the moment?

[00:15:36] Paul: So building that partnership, I think is really key to doing this well because it means that all the rest of the work that you're doing is much more likely to succeed.

[00:15:46] Karen: And part of that partnership for me is thinking about, you know, who best should say something sometimes. So I had an example where I was working with a finance team, and these are accountants. These are people who are really good with spreadsheets, who really like numbers and they get convinced about things based on numbers and documents, and they needed to get total buy-in from a group of people.

[00:16:07] Karen: And of course, the people on the finance team are the ones who like spreadsheets the most, the ones who are comfortable with numbers the most. So the group that they were talking to largely wasn't, and I said, how about I tell your story? And they were like, but you won't know the detail and you won't know all the numbers and you won't know.

[00:16:23] Karen: And I was like, that's true. And neither will they. Like the group that you're talking to, like you'll be there to fill in if any of that comes up. But the thing that you're trying to make happen won't be facilitated by talking about it in the way that your brain works. We're really glad You're the ones making the recommendation.

[00:16:41] Karen: We need your brain. That's excellent. But if you just explain what makes sense to you, that's not gonna transfer well. Right. So that piece. And we had to work through it, and I had to say, so this is how I would tell the story. And then they could say, oh, right, yep, you can do it. But it had to happen in conversation. And one of the things that I see groups do sometimes that it might be a great starting point, but it's so not the right finish, is like you said, Paul, that you often, like, the way you do it is you work from a bunch of prompts and people go, oh, well we can do this faster. We'll just put all those prompts on a form you know, the person fills it out and they give it to us, and then I'm ready to facilitate.

[00:17:15] Karen: And I just wanna be clear that the conversation, the back and forth, the interaction, it's fine to give a form to let them think about it before I meet with them. I don't have any objection to that, that if the only thing that's happening is the form, you're missing so much that could be done to make the whole thing work better.

[00:17:33] Paul: Exactly. 

Conclusion and Key Takeaways

[00:17:38] Paul: So to track where we've been here today, we're really talking about when we're gonna get a group of people together to have a meeting, right? To make a decision, to work through some options, to do some brains around whatever it is that we're getting together to do. We wanna make sure that we're making good use of those people's time, and energy and attention, and that often requires more preparation than people might think about.

[00:17:56] Paul: So Karen and I have talked about things that we do, when we're brought in as facilitators to help people prepare for things like this. And so it's talking to often not just the person in charge. But often many of the people who are gonna be involved, many of the participants, certainly people who are gonna be bringing different topics, who are gonna have pieces of the agenda.

[00:18:16] Paul: And we're really doing a couple of different things while we're having those conversations. What we're doing is we're getting information to kind of figure out, okay, what's going on here? Like, what are the things that I need to be thinking about as I'm planning, you know, what it is that, how we might structure this part of the meeting or this day, right?

[00:18:33] Paul: So we're getting information that's useful to us as facilitators. We're also helping the person that we're talking to think through what it is that they're really trying to get out of this, what might happen if we do these things. We're helping them show up more clear about what needs to be done, how things are gonna work, so that they aren't just showing up and being surprised by all kinds of things in the room.

[00:18:55] Paul: And then we're also really building rapport. We're building a sense of partnership, you know, that we are there to support them and that they have more of an understanding of that on an intuitive and an emotional level. That those things happen out of these conversations that we need to have, that certainly we could skimp on them.

[00:19:15] Paul: We could choose to invest less in our meeting preparation, in getting ready for these things. But we really find that when we do that, we're at risk of not actually getting the results that we're hoping for, that we need to invest appropriately. Obviously we don't want to over plan, and go too deeply down the rabbit hole of this is exactly how every minute of everything is gonna work.

[00:19:36] Paul: But we do need to be clear with people about what it is that we're trying to do. What's the outcome we're trying to get to? What is it that we want to be true at the end of the meeting or at the end of the topic? That wasn't true at the beginning. So that we can really come up with a good plan for how we will get there.

[00:19:53] Paul: One that is likely to actually lead to the result that they want, or as close as we can really get in the place that they're at, so we can really figure out how this meeting will work.

[00:20:03] Karen: And that's gonna do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Karen Gimnig.

[00:20:07] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis, and this has been Employing Differences.