Introduction and Episode Question

[00:00:03] Karen: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals. 

[00:00:09] Paul: I'm Paul Tevis.

[00:00:10] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig. 

[00:00:12] Paul: Each episode we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, do I really wanna say this?

Understanding the Urge to Speak Out

[00:00:20] Karen: So sometimes in our organizations, we come to a place where we have some kind of boundary we might set, or an ultimatum we might give, or a threat we might make, in the extreme it might be. You know, if I don't get what I want, I'm leaving kind of things. And I think we get there because we're pretty unhappy with something and we start asking ourself, is this really a good fit for me?

[00:00:43] Karen: Is this something I'm really willing to do? But we get to where there's this thing we feel like we could say probably because we're angry. If I don't get my way on this, we probably would say it more artfully than that. Then I am quitting, I am leaving, I'm dropping out of the community. I am not going to do that task anymore.

[00:01:01] Karen: I mean there are variations on this that are less dramatic than quitting a job but the basic tone is if this thing that I don't like doesn't stop happening, I'm going to stop participating in some way or something like that. Some drastic measure that I could take. And the question is, do I actually wanna say that thing?

[00:01:19] Karen: Is it useful to make that threat name, that ultimatum name, that boundary? Is that a good idea? 

Evaluating the Consequences

[00:01:26] Karen: And we wanna explore it because I'm actually betting that the answer to do I wanna say this?

[00:01:31] Karen: Yeah, I want to, but am I gonna be glad that I did? Eh, that's a more interesting question. And that's what we wanna talk about today.

[00:01:39] Paul: I think that's actually the question that you really want to ask yourself when you find yourself going, oh, I really want to say this, right, is the, like, do I really want to have said this? Because that's actually the decision you need to make is going, okay, do I think saying this, that the consequences and the results of that are something that I actually want?

[00:01:57] Paul: You know, we've talked before about how anytime you're feeling self-righteous, you're probably steering yourself in dangerous directions. 

The Importance of Emotional Awareness

[00:02:06] Paul: But also at the same time, I think it's important, you know, you said, I'm probably angry about this, right? I've got some strong, unhappy negative feelings around this.

[00:02:14] Paul: I think it's important not to marginalize those, right? You're angry for a reason. And you know, The thing that I tell a lot of people, and I work with a lot of engineers, right? Folks who, for whom feelings are not their first language. But I say, look, feelings are data, right?

[00:02:29] Paul: This is like the check engine light on your car, like you're angry about this. That means get curious about what's going on. What is it that you are angry about? What boundary has been crossed? What are you not getting? Because that is an arena to explore and a way to get curious about like, so what is it that I actually want to have happen?

[00:02:49] Paul: And is saying something actually gonna help me to get that. So I think, it's not just calm down, it's actually get curious about why am I feeling what I'm feeling, what's going on with me? Because that can point towards whether or not I do actually want to go ahead and say the thing. You know, and say, Hey, if this thing doesn't change, then I'm gonna go do this.

[00:03:11] Paul: So I think getting curious about why you're having that strong emotional reaction is useful. Don't let those feelings drive the bus, but they've got something important to tell you.

[00:03:21] Karen: Yeah, and if this is feeling like a rerun of previous episodes, that particular piece is a thing we say a lot because it applies in so many situations. 

Strategic Timing and Delivery

[00:03:30] Karen: And the place I really wanna point to with this episode today is particularly when we're taking a stand about like, if it doesn't change, I'm going to change it kind of thing.

[00:03:41] Karen: I think those are things we only get to say once and I think that's a topic that's new for us is like that thing of generally we say, find a useful way to express it, find a useful thing to say and have the communication and we kind of encourage that sharing and information sharing because that's what this is.

[00:03:58] Karen: At the end of the day when we do this, well, what we're talking about is, do I have information about decisions I'm about to be making that's useful for somebody else to know before I've actually made them? Do I need to say it so that they get a chance to make the changes before I actually have to leave something I'd rather not leave?

[00:04:16] Karen: But the thing about this sort of statement is you kind of only get to say it once. Because the more you say it, and there are communities where I see this happen, where there's a member who, you know, every time they get really mad, well then I'm gonna leave. And I advise people to say, okay, because that recurring threat actually takes the teeth out of it.

[00:04:36] Karen: Like it's not meaningful then. And so I think once we've acknowledged, okay, the thing I wanna say, is a thing that I can only say once and have it have any meaning or have the sort of power and punch that I would like it to have. It's that I really want people to pay attention to it. Once I know I am in that category, I gotta get really strategic about, is this the moment that I would wanna say the thing.

[00:05:01] Paul: Yeah, I agree with you that. You know, saying if this thing doesn't change, then I'm going to do this thing. Right? You have to be willing to follow through on that, which is why you really do only get to say it once. 

The Power of Ultimatums

[00:05:13] Paul: Because if I say to you, Karen, if you're not gonna change your way about how we schedule when we record things, then I'm gonna stop doing the podcast with you.

[00:05:20] Paul: And you're like, okay. I can't really, I've got these constraints. I'm not really gonna be able to change if I don't then stop doing the podcast with you. That has now you're like, there's no coming back from that. Now it's like, so I need to actually be willing to do that. So I think there's an important piece of like making sure.

[00:05:35] Paul: If you are going to put the decision in the other person's hands, 'cause that's effectively what you're doing, that you're actually willing to do that. Right? So your point about being strategic is about making sure that like, you want to do it at a point where, one, you think they could actually make the change that you're interested in, but two, that you're okay with if it, you know, it's not gonna be your favorite thing in the world.

[00:05:59] Paul: But if you need to follow through with whatever it is you say you're gonna do, that you are capable of doing it. So it's like you need to do it a moment where something could actually change. Because if you say this thing and they don't make the change, and then you don't follow through, that's now you're really sunk.

[00:06:18] Karen: And you're worse off probably because this is a power play. I mean to say, if you don't do what I want, I'm gonna do something you don't want. Or maybe you do, but probably you don't want, that I hope you don't want that is a power play. And there are times that that's useful. But as we have said a number of times on this podcast before, power over always damages relationships.

[00:06:38] Karen: Sometimes it's worth it. I think this is one of those cases that we do it because it's worth it. If it's worth it. But if you say it and, don't mean it, odds are you'll have damaged the relationship. You'll actually be in worse shape than if you hadn't said it. So you wanna make sure you mean it. And then I think another piece is I think you wanna make sure you've exhausted the options.

[00:06:56] Karen: So probably, the first time Paul asks me to like, be more serious about scheduling, maybe it doesn't come with a threat. Maybe he just says, Hey Karen, I'm having trouble with scheduling and see if that works before you bring out the big guns that do more damage. And so I think that's one of the things to think about is are there less dramatic, less potentially dangerous ways to ask for what I need.

[00:07:23] Karen: Because in the end, hopefully if you're threatening to leave or something like that, it's because there's something you'd like that you're not getting. And so like, have you tried the other ways of getting that before we jump to the big gun thing, including, are there things I could change about how I'm doing things that would make that thing work better for me or other, are there other options besides just making a pretty strong demand?

[00:07:48] Paul: I think that there's a ramp, right? There's an escalation there of seriousness. Because I do think that sometimes this is the situation you wanna avoid, right? You have actually under expressed the degree to which this is important to you, until you know, and then resentment has built, and so then all of a sudden you're issuing this ultimatum and the other person is going like, hold on.

[00:08:09] Paul: Where did this come from? I do actually think if you're doing this well in terms of making sure you're exhausting your options, it's not a surprise to the other person when you say this, right? And so that's actually a thing that you can use is going, like, if I walk in tomorrow and say this thing, are they gonna be surprised?

[00:08:26] Paul: Because if so, there are probably other things that I wanna do first. That's probably a sign I haven't exhausted all of my options yet.

Balancing Short-Term and Long-Term Goals

[00:08:34] Karen: So we've been talking about like, what are the things I need to do on my side? What do I need to pay attention to about what's going on with me as I make this decision about when I might say something? But I also wanna point to what's going on on the other side because if I'm gonna say a thing like this, I wanna say it into a context where they actually would have the capacity or the ability or the moment to do something about it.

[00:08:58] Karen: So, you know if there are five people on vacation and my boss is running around like crazy, just trying to plug all the holes and you know, doesn't have a minute to think straight. Probably that's not the moment to drop this on them. Right. So being thoughtful about is this a moment in their capacity where there's a chance that it could land in a way that will set them up to take action, that is what I'd like them to do.

[00:09:22] Karen: That would be good for me. And I think sometimes we miss that. I mean, often we get the most frustrated when our bosses or the people around us are struggling the most. Right? They're harder to live with because they're struggling the most. So we hit our limit and think, okay, I'm gonna say the thing.

[00:09:38] Karen: And that's probably the worst timing to say the thing. Like, you're probably better off to let things settle down. Wait until they're in a better place. They're having just kind of a normal day. You can come in and say, Hey, can I have a chat? That's gonna be better timing than to jump into it when they're already at their wit's end.

[00:09:55] Paul: And I will add to that, there's probably never a good time. It is very easy to talk yourself out of actually saying it when it does make sense to say, right, if you've walked through and gone like, yeah, okay. You know, it's not just that I'm angry and I want to come in guns blazing, right? If you're aware, like, this situation is not tenable for me, and I do need to make a change.

[00:10:19] Paul: And you don't wanna talk yourself out of that, right? And go like, but you know, my boss is having a really tough day. And in fact, like, this person just left and we're unlikely to hire another person for nine months. Like, you do really need to sort of make a plan in terms of like, look, I could probably tolerate this thing for another few days, or whatever that is, but like, be realistic about how long are you really willing to.

[00:10:46] Paul: Once you've come to the conclusion that you do want to say it, how long are you willing to wait for the best time? Right. And it's like, the best time in this window is maybe one way to think about it. You're like, cause there's a cost.

[00:10:58] Paul: You know, the reason why you're at this point, which, I sometimes call, it's like being at the Y in the road. You know, I need to go this way or that way. And sitting at that junction is actually painful. Like neither of them is going to be great, but it's really when you've gotten to the point where you've realized that not making the decision, right.

[00:11:17] Paul: This may be another really key thing around like, do I want to have said this is going actually the pain of not doing one or the other is too much for me at this point. I'm not willing to sit with that. And when you've reached that point, you do need to figure out how long am I willing to sit in that stress?

[00:11:36] Paul: And not things happen to other people all the time. Right? There's never gonna be a perfect time to sit. So I agree with you. Be strategic, like choose when the best moment. As soon as possible is going to be once you've come to the conclusion. But yeah, maybe not when they've just had, all six things happen.

[00:11:56] Paul: They haven't had a chance to eat lunch yet, so they're hangry. This, that, and the other. Like, pick a good enough moment.

[00:12:04] Karen: And I think that is a thing, is like almost anything we say. You can take it too far in that direction 'cause there's a lot of nuance in this, but that balance is a key piece. One other thing that I think doesn't always apply but can apply in certain situations, is typically these things are about kind of long-term, right?

[00:12:23] Karen: Like, quitting my job is a long-term decision and maybe I, don't wanna do it this week. Maybe I'd do it in a few weeks. Something like that. But you're looking at kind of the long view with this, and I think it's important just to pause and ask yourself, is there anything in the short term. That I wanna make sure I don't disrupt.

[00:12:40] Karen: Is there a thing I'm trying to make happen for me? Maybe I need my next two paychecks, or maybe I had a particular project that's important to me and I wanna get that done. So I've got this sort of long-term issue, but there's this project that's coming up that I need people's cooperation on and I need people's energy behind.

[00:12:57] Karen: And it matters to me that if I say this thing, if I drop this bomb, I'm gonna distract everybody from the thing that I actually need them to pay attention to for the next week or two, or whatever that timing is like, are there short term goals that are relevant and worth tolerating the long term chaos that I don't like for in order to get that short term goal achieved?

[00:13:21] Karen: So I think that just that ability to kind of look at different time horizons because the moment you say the thing you have said it, and it will change everything that happens thereafter to some extent. Even if they're like, yep, nope, we're not doing that. Pretend you didn't, it's as if you didn't say it.

[00:13:38] Karen: And I might even say, okay, well I'll pretend I didn't say it and I'm just gonna stay here because I changed my mind. I don't actually wanna leave. It will have changed your relationships. There's no like erasing it. So if there are short term things that you wanna make sure get done, get those done first and choose your moment after those to actually dive in.

Summary and Next Steps

[00:13:59] Paul: So to track sort of where we've been here today, we're talking about this idea of, you know, we have, and for lack of a better term, an ultimatum that we wanna deliver, right? A thing where we're saying, we've reached this point where one of these two things is gonna happen. Either you are gonna do this thing or I'm gonna do this thing.

[00:14:16] Paul: And we're talking about, you know, do we really wanna say that? We might be thinking it. We might be thinking it really loud, but do we actually want those words to come out of our mouths? So one of the things we're thinking about is the fact that this is caused by, you know, some strong feeling, right?

[00:14:30] Paul: We've got something under that. We're angry, we're unhappy about a thing. Don't let that feeling drive whether or not you say it. We really wanna ask ourselves. Do I want to have said this? Will saying this and saying this at this time be useful to me. Will I think it will help in some way.

[00:14:48] Paul: And not just that I'll feel better, and that they'll have heard it. And I'll express my righteous indignation. And so we're thinking about things that would help us to come to that conclusion, right? The idea of you really don't, you got one chance to say this, kind of thing. You don't want to say it and not mean it.

[00:15:05] Paul: Because that, in saying it is always gonna change the nature of the relationship, but saying it and not meaning it, not being willing to carry through on it, is gonna damage the relationship in a different way and not get you, what you need. Because now you're gonna be stuck in the unchanged situation.

[00:15:19] Paul: We're talking about how you want to make sure that you've exhausted all of your options before you get to this point. Talking about sort of maybe ramping things up. You don't wanna be in a situation where you are, you know, either I need you to change this thing or I'm gonna leave.

[00:15:33] Paul: Comes as a surprise to the other person. If you think they're gonna be surprised by it, then there are probably other options you have for expressing this need or drawing this boundary that you haven't, really exhausted yet. But you also wanna be clear about when are good times and when are really not good times to say something.

[00:15:51] Paul: You wanna make sure that it's the sort of thing where both they're in a position where, in a situation where they could actually say yes to the thing that you're asking for. That there's a possibility of that if you know that there's no possibility and then it may not even really be worth saying it.

[00:16:05] Paul: And so you've gotta pick a good moment, but it also needs to be a moment where you're willing to do the thing that you're gonna say. And you wanna make sure that it's not gonna disrupt the things in the short term that you're trying to get. That it's not getting in the way of this project that you're gonna need to follow through upon, that are getting in the way of the thing that you are needing to get, you know, I need a couple of extra paychecks before I could afford to leave, for example, or things like that.

[00:16:28] Paul: So you want to be careful about whether or not it's useful to say this thing, but also then be judicious about your timing and making sure that you're doing it. There never is gonna be a perfect moment, but at the best possible moment. Or really a good enough moment to actually say the thing that you really, really wanna say.

[00:16:50] Karen: Yeah, and if you find yourself at that moment, tune in next week. Our next episode will be about how to have that conversation once you've decided you wanted to. So that's gonna do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Karen Gimnig. 

[00:17:03] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis, and this has been Employing Differences.