Introduction and Episode Question

[00:00:03] Paul: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

[00:00:08] Karen: I'm Karen Gimnig. 

[00:00:09] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis.

[00:00:11] Karen: Each episode we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is how do I deliver an ultimatum?

Understanding Ultimatums

[00:00:18] Paul: This is a little bit of an unusual topic for us because so much of this podcast is really about staying out of this situation, not being in a situation where you need to say. If X doesn't happen, I'm going to do Y. But also recognizing that that is a thing that we need to be able to do.

[00:00:35] Paul: And being able to do it in a good way, right, in the best possible way is an important relational skill, right? Being able to say to someone else, if this thing doesn't change, then I'm going to take this action. Is something that you can do well and that you can do poorly. And we wanna talk about what we think are useful ways to do it well.

[00:01:00] Karen: Yeah. 

Two Head Spaces for Ultimatums

[00:01:00] Karen: And a frame I start with on this is, I think there are two kind of head spaces where we're tempted to make an ultimatum and we talked a good bit about kind of how do you know if you're ready to, in the last episode, which was 268. But as we go into, actually, I think I'm ready to have the conversation.

[00:01:18] Karen: I think we wanna think about am I just mad enough that I'm finally ready to say the thing and I'm kind of burning a bridge on my way out? Or am I actually hoping that things will change and I can stay, or things will change and I won't have to do whatever is the thing I'm threatening to do.

[00:01:33] Karen: What we wanna talk about is the former. If you just wanna burn bridges, you probably know how to do that. Go for it. If you've thought about it and that's your choice, know your consequences, fine. Then in this episode, we wanna talk about when we're at the point of, okay, if it doesn't change, I'm leaving.

[00:01:49] Karen: Or if it doesn't change, I'm not gonna do that task anymore or something. I'm gonna do something different if things keep going the way they have been. And I think that the person who could make a change doesn't know that I'm at that point. They don't know how important it is to me. They don't know how much it matters to me, and frankly, they don't know what the organization might lose if I don't get what I need in order to make it work for me to stay.

Information Sharing Exercise

[00:02:13] Karen: And so in that sense, giving an ultimatum or delivering an ultimatum is an information sharing exercise. And so how we go about it needs to be consistent with I'm giving them the information that they need to make the decisions that are in their hands about the organization. With the full information about what impact that's gonna have on me and how that's gonna likely influence my decisions going forward.

[00:02:38] Karen: Which is a very different conversation than I just need them to hear how mad I am or how wrong they are, or how wounded I am or how righteous things are, whatever. That's a very different conversation. And so I think the first thing about how to deliver an ultimatum is to get really clear about what your goal is and relative to what we're gonna talk about in this episode, that your goal is to give other people information that they can use to make a better decision for the organization. 

Balancing Information and Relationships

[00:03:06] Paul: Something that my business partner Allison Pollard and I talk about a lot in any tough conversation, and this is one of the tough ones. Is that you likely actually have two goals, right? One is that information sharing piece that you're talking about. This is the content of the conversation.

[00:03:23] Paul: What information needs to get exchanged. You need to know that this is where I'm at with this, that I've made the decision that either this needs to change or I'm gonna take this action. That's sort of around the content and I agree with you, being really clear about it is important.

[00:03:38] Paul: So it's not just something like, I need to be paid fairly, right? It's like, I need to get this much of an increase, or I'm gonna go look for another job. So there's as little miscommunication about that as possible. We don't wanna be vague, like we actually wanna be clear about it because then the other person has the information they need to do the decision making.

[00:03:57] Paul: But the other goal is often about the relationship. What do I actually want the relationship with this other person to be like, after I have had the conversation, I've had conversations like this where it's things like, this person needs to know that this is where I'm at with this thing. And I also want them to know that I don't blame them for it.

[00:04:17] Paul: That I actually want them to know. It's actually been really great to work with you. If this doesn't change, I understand that's probably because your hands are tied because of corporate policy and I'm not gonna hold that one against you. I want us to still be good afterwards. I think it's really important to get clear for you about both of those. What is the information that I need them to have, you know, that needs to be very clearly communicated about whatever the topic is, the situation. But also what do I want my relationship to be with this person once the conversation has ended?

[00:04:51] Paul: Because if we don't keep both of those in mind, we are likely to get at most one of them. 'Cause for example, one of the things that often happens is we go, oh, well I still wanna have a good working relationship with this person. And so then we go in to have the tough conversation to sort of say, this thing needs to change, or, I'm gonna leave.

[00:05:10] Paul: And then they start to react in some way where we start to question, oh, are they gonna take this personally or what have you? And then we wimp, right? And then we go well, yeah, well actually it's not a big deal, right? And we back down. They don't get the information that they need. They leave the conversation not knowing how important this thing is to us.

[00:05:27] Paul: And so, it's important to recognize that we're actually trying to do two things at the same time, and that we need to take actions that actually help us to do both of them.

Clarity in Communication

[00:05:38] Karen: And I think the clarity piece that we keep mentioning, yes, it's about quantitative things. Like if I'm gonna ask for a raise, I need to be clear about how much of a raise I need, that kind of thing. But I also think it can be, I mean, it doesn't have to be about money for sure. It can be, I for sure need to know my schedule this much in advance.

[00:05:59] Karen: Or I see this show up in communities a lot where, for example, communities make a choice to buy some land about where they're gonna live. And inevitably we lose some people on that because that land works for some and doesn't for others. But before you can make that choice, it's really useful to know how many you're gonna lose, right?

[00:06:16] Karen: So somebody can say, I need to be in a place that's walkable to these locations and that's gonna be a deal killer for me. And I think the point that we're making is, those are things that aren't about you behaved badly to me. They're about, this is the thing that I need. So things that don't fall in this category are you need to stop being a jerk or you need to stop disrespecting me, or I need to be in a respectful environment.

[00:06:42] Karen: That's all hugely judgment laden. And it doesn't help your boss or the person that you're talking to or the community, whoever it is that you're working with. It doesn't help them know. What it is specifically that needs to happen for you to be okay. And it could be a list. There are a number of things that aren't working for me and I need all or most of these to change in order for me to stay you know, I need this much time off and I need this, whatever I, I need to be in an office that I can get more daylight.

[00:07:10] Karen: 'Cause I am struggling with not having enough daylight or more breaks or whatever. But being really clear about the ask makes it way more likely that they can actually meet you there. If you're just saying, I'm mad and if I don't get less mad, I'm going away. If there's any kind of blame, if there's any kind of put down, if there's any kind of shaming in what you're saying, that's all they're gonna hear.

[00:07:33] Karen: And frankly, if I come at you and say, I think you're a terrible person, and if you don't start respecting me, and if you don't stop acting like a jerk and if you don't stop doing stupid idiotic things, I'm gonna leave. They're gonna say bye. Because in that moment, the last thing they wanna do is keep me around. 

Real-Life Example

[00:07:48] Paul: I was in a situation at one point where I was part of an investor group doing some startup investments. And we had, a group of us had pooled our funds and we were gonna be choosing one company to invest in. And one of the candidates that we were considering was in an industry that I was not interested in being an investor in.

[00:08:07] Paul: I had some ethical and philosophical objections to that. That started to become a sticking point in the group. And so basically, I needed to be able to say, look, I'm not saying that as a group, I'm not gonna force you to do what I want. If you are wanting to invest in this, then I would like someone to buy my shares.

[00:08:27] Paul: I would like to be able to exit the group. I would like to be able to do that. And so if you feel strongly enough about this is a good candidate for investment that you're willing to buy my shares, then great. Like I'm actually, I am okay with that. I'm not saying no one should invest in this.

[00:08:44] Paul: I'm saying that's not something that I am interested in doing. That was really the place that I needed to be able to get to, to say like, but to be able to then lay out clearly. . And sometimes it is useful to do that what I'm not saying is language. That's one of my favorite tools from crucial conversations, right, is clarifying statements.

[00:09:02] Paul: I'm not saying this, what I am saying is this. So if you want to go ahead with this, the additional implication of that is you're gonna have one fewer people in this group, which I am not gonna hold any of that against you. But this is also where I stand with this and what I am comfortable and not comfortable doing.

[00:09:21] Paul: So now you have that information and I trust you to make the decision.

[00:09:26] Karen: And I think that's super important and none of that message is gonna get through if they're already feeling put down and shamed and blamed and all of that. So you just wanna be really thoughtful about what is the content, which is these are the things that I need, and if I don't get them, these are the things I'm prepared to do or thinking about doing or planning to do.

[00:09:47] Karen: Then the relational piece of, and what I hope for is that we can still have a good relationship because I value you in these ways because you matter to me in these ways because I still care about the organization or I want the rest of you to be successful. Like, where am I with that? And I think it's important to have thought about what can I, in my integrity say, right?

[00:10:11] Karen: So if I just think you're the worst boss ever. Maybe this isn't a conversation I even wanna have, but probably, I'm not gonna say I still want a great relationship with you because you've been so supportive of me if I don't think it's true. Right? So you probably wanna have in your pocket the things you can say that are positive, not just to do the sort of sandwich thing that people sometimes talk about, but because when they're hearing, I'm really unhappy, they need another story to put next to it.

[00:10:40] Karen: But it has to be the real story. It can't be the fake one.

[00:10:42] Paul: Yes. Ultimately like delivering an ultimatum, you know, like any tough conversation is about saying things that people don't wanna hear in ways they can hear it. That's really what you're getting to with that. So it needs to be words that you can say. But it also needs to be things that they can hear, and you really need to think carefully about that.

[00:11:02] Paul: And so that's kind of the big thing for me is, you don't just go, alright, I'm doing the conversation, I'm going and I'm having it now without thinking very clearly about that. And that it's both about what do you need to say? But really in terms of, what do they need to hear?

[00:11:21] Paul: How do you need to say what you're gonna say so that they can hear it? Not in the, I'm just gonna unload on you because I'm so frustrated and this, that, and the other thing, because that is unlikely to get you what you actually want.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

[00:11:34] Karen: So what we're saying is when I'm in that point that I'm ready to give an ultimatum, if I don't get what I want.

[00:11:40] Karen: I'm going to change something and maybe I'm gonna leave, maybe I'm gonna stop doing a certain thing that I've been doing, whatever it is. We wanna be really thoughtful about how we do that.

[00:11:50] Karen: We talked in the last episode about how do we know if we wanna do that. But once we know we do, I think we wanna go about it from an information sharing kind of perspective. They don't know how upset I am. This is a way I can help them see that. We want it to be something that we've tried some other ways to try to help them know like, this is where I am.

[00:12:10] Karen: But by the time we get there, we wanna be clear that we really have two goals. We have a goal to say to them, this is what I need and this is what I'm thinking about doing if I don't get it. And so the relationship goal, which is this is the relationship I hope to have with them by the end of this conversation.

[00:12:27] Karen: So how do I help them see the positive side of what I'm seeing? How do I help them feel that I am relational and connected, interested in them, interested in the organization, that kind of thing. That maintains the relationships, whether or not I end up following through on my ultimatum, that we can have that conversation, and not end up in a place where we have also used blame, shame, put downs, judgments, that kind of stuff in a way that prevents them from hearing it.

[00:12:58] Karen: So we wanna share the content in that relational lens that gives them the capacity to hear it, and then they can decide for themselves, for the organization what makes sense now that they have the new information that we've supplied about what makes sense for me. 

[00:13:14] Paul: Well, that's gonna do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis. 

[00:13:17] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig, and this has been Employing Differences.