Introduction to Employing Differences

[00:00:03] Karen: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals. 

[00:00:09] Paul: I'm Paul Tevis. 

[00:00:10] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig.

[00:00:11] Paul: Each episode we start with a question and see where it takes us. 

The Question: Is That Valid?

[00:00:15] Paul: This week's question is, is that valid?

[00:00:19] Karen: This is one of those questions that I think we sometimes ask ourselves. So the scenario that we're imagining for this question is, somebody just said a thing and I disagree with them. I know I disagree with them, but what I wanna be asking is, is their perspective valid? And if I find myself in that place, I'm gonna say, I wanna push us to say yes.

[00:00:44] Karen: It might not be correct. It might not be the thing we wanna make the decision based on. It might not be what I think, but that other person who's with me. Their perspective is valid. Their opinion is valid. Their idea is valid. And what I mean by that is that it makes sense to them and that it's gonna serve our relationship better if I don't say that's not valid and just dismiss them.

Understanding Validation vs. Agreement

[00:01:11] Karen: So I wanna think about today the framing is kind of validation as defined as the opposite of dismissive.

[00:01:20] Paul: Yeah. And I think that where we get in trouble here around this, well, in a couple of spots, right?

[00:01:26] Paul: So this, yeah, this shows up in disagreement, right? Where we're trying to figure out what we wanna do, or we're arguing about something, or we're talking politics, heavens for friend. And the other person is saying something that we disagree with, right? And so I think there is a belief where we get stuck.

[00:01:41] Paul: That if I'm validating anything about what the other person says, it means I agree with them. And very clearly that's not what we're saying here. When you're talking about validation, Karen, we talked a little bit about this before the show, right? It really is the idea that I'm not agreeing and I'm not saying they're, you can't see my square quotes, but right, right?

[00:02:00] Paul: But what I'm saying is I can understand how they would get there. I can understand how that makes sense from where they are standing. 

The Importance of Intellectual Humility

[00:02:12] Paul: And I think that's really important to do in part because as you said, it is important relationally, but I think there's also a degree of intellectual humility that's important there, that we have limited viewpoints.

[00:02:21] Paul: We come to these things, come to our beliefs and come to the things we believe in any particular disagreement based on our experiences, our data, our frames, the way that we interpret things, things like that. And we need to recognize that we don't have a monopoly on the truth, right?

[00:02:40] Paul: That they're probably thinking the same kinds of things about us, that we're thinking about them. That we aren't privileged in any particular way, in terms of knowing exactly what is true and right. We do know what our sense of this is based on our experience, and if we wanna have any chance in the world of them acknowledging that, we need to acknowledge that their perspective is also valid, that they've come to that for some reason.

[00:03:08] Paul: And I think that can be hard to do when it is so different from our own. 

[00:03:13] Karen: Yeah. And I think very often we jump to, well, I can't see the sense that they're making, therefore they don't make any sense. And the problem with that is that it assumes that they either are making something up. Or that they inherently within their own head don't make sense. 

The Human Condition: Making Sense

[00:03:33] Karen: And the thing is making sense within our own experience and in our own brains, that is a human condition.

[00:03:38] Karen: People who believe things that absolutely are illogical. There are mental health diagnoses for that and they're pretty severe ones. Short of that, the person across from you absolutely does make sense within their own experience that that is just what humans are. And so, when we ignore that feature of humans and instead just go to the well, you don't make any sense.

[00:04:03] Karen: So I'm not paying any attention to you. If I do that, I'm really missing the opportunity to learn something. I'm missing also the opportunity to connect with that other person. But I start from the premise, which by the way is a lot of work. It's not my favorite part of how I value in the world. 'Cause it's hard.

[00:04:21] Karen: But the thing that I try to start from is if I can't see how their position makes sense, I'm not done yet. Like I have work left to do because somehow they do make sense and they're seeing it and I'm not. So if I want the full picture, I gotta get curious, I've gotta get interested, I've gotta ask some more questions.

[00:04:44] Karen: What I find is more often true is that, yeah, I saw the sense that they made, I just didn't like it.

The Trap of Dismissal

[00:04:50] Paul: Yes, and I think, that's the trap, right? And I think the other important thing there when we talk about sort of the space between. It's like if I am seeing the sense that you are making and I don't like it, it's actually okay to say that. Right? I can say like, okay, like I'm, based on what you said, it sounds like where you're coming from on this and how that makes sense to you is this kind of stuff, right.

[00:05:15] Paul: And you go, yeah, absolutely. And, I said, okay, that makes sense to me. That's the validation piece that you're talking about. I can then further say. I don't agree with that. Let's work like we're not done yet. Validating in some ways is like, the end of the beginning, right? It's maybe somewhere in the middle of the disagreement, right?

[00:05:34] Paul: It doesn't, meanwhile, I validate what you had to say. Like, I, it makes sense to you, but now I'm moving on. Right? Similarly, as we were saying, validation being the opposite of dismissal, right? That it's like, oh, I wanna just dismiss you and get on with this and be done. When we're really in that place of disagreement, when we can get to the point where each of us understands the sense that the other one makes, now we can actually start to work on stuff.

[00:05:59] Paul: We've got a real basis for working together. This doesn't mean we have to do it all the time but like that's kind of why we think it's important is that this becomes the basis for working through whatever disagreement or argument or thing it is. Because now each of us sort of has a shared sense for, oh, okay, that's what's going on with the other person.

[00:06:23] Paul: That's really important relationally.

[00:06:27] Karen: Yeah, and I think what we tend to see in society, what, you know, most of the media will show us, what most of us kind of grew up with is this assumption that if I'm in a disagreement, I'm trying to win. This is debate club. The goal is to win, and the way that I win is to put down the other person in some way.

[00:06:50] Karen: So if I can just dismiss them, that means I win. And I wanna point out, I don't think it works that way. I don't think it necessarily means that I win. And I think it almost guarantees that we don't win and that the relationship doesn't win and that the joint thing that we're trying to work toward doesn't win.

[00:07:11] Karen: Because to dismiss to say you don't make any sense or to fail to recognize the sense that you make and just, oh, that can't be true. Or however we do that. Any language that feels dismissive to the other person is gonna land as a huge put down and it's gonna disconnect the conversation. It's not going to deepen it.

[00:07:30] Karen: And help us get to a place where we can both be invested in the way we go forward. It's gonna create a separation that makes it hard to actually function collaboratively on that thing we're headed to. And so I really wanna disrupt, I think an unconscious belief that we have, that is the way that I win in an argument is to dismiss someone else's idea. And instead say, I actually can win by validating their idea, which is not the same as agreeing with it.

Collaboration in the Workplace

[00:07:59] Paul: And I see this play out all the time in, you know, in software organizations where I've spent a lot of my career, you know, there's almost always a tension between engineering and product. And the tension exists because they see the world in different ways. They have access to different data.

[00:08:17] Paul: They're thinking about different things. They have different areas of expertise. And so, there are often lots of disagreements about where should we put our time, what should be working on next? But they actually need each other in order to build good products right? To actually create the results that they want to create.

[00:08:35] Paul: And so, oftentimes I do hear these things where engineers will say things like, yeah, but how do I demonstrate that I'm right, right? But how do I, you know, we're in these disagreements and things like that and how do I win? And the first thing I really try to tell people is, if you're thinking about how to win, you've already lost.

[00:08:53] Paul: As you say, this isn't about debate. Right. As a former national level, high school debater, I can tell you there's all kinds of bad habits that I picked up that I needed to retrain myself out of. And it was exactly that, right? Dismissing people's arguments saying, here's why they're wrong. Here's what doesn't matter because I'm sort of appealing to a third party sort of thing.

[00:09:12] Paul: But in most of the work that we need to do, we actually have to work together. And so that relational space actually becomes very, very important. And so for me as an engineer to be able to talk to somebody in the product management role who says like, here's why I think we need to do this thing. And I'm going, I really don't think we need to do it.

[00:09:31] Paul: But if I can't understand why they think we need to do that, I'm not gonna be able to work very well with them. I need to understand why that makes sense to them, and they need to understand why what I'm proposing makes sense to me. Because then together we can figure out what are we actually going to do about this, because that's how we really do need to get things done.

[00:09:53] Paul: And so, it's not about arguing better, it's about listening deeper.

Conclusion: Moving Forward Together

[00:09:58] Karen: So I think where we've been today is starting with this idea of is that valid? Which is really kind of a debate sort of frame, and it's a like, is there a way I can just dismiss this and make it go away and not have to deal with this thing that I disagree with or don't like? And what we're saying is we think that's not a great idea, that we don't think that validating someone else's perspective, finding the sense that they're making.

[00:10:21] Karen: We don't think that lessens my ability to still potentially advocate for what I want. We think that what it does is it gives me a broader sense of what's actually going on and what might be relevant. It deepens the relationship. It deepens the conversation so that we can get to that place of moving forward together.

[00:10:42] Karen: That is actually more likely to be a win for all of us and for me included. As opposed to the like chasing the win and ending up with less relationship, less connection and less good ideas, less good process for working together as a team. Less good ability to bring together the different expertise, for example, between engineering and product or whatever different viewpoints you may have in your organization.

[00:11:10] Karen: So, that we wanna start? If we're asking the question, is that valid? It's probably the wrong question. And the real question is, how is that valid? And how can I understand how that's valid so that I can be connected and moving toward the best answer?

[00:11:25] Paul: Well, that's gonna do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis. 

[00:11:29] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig, and this has been Employing Differences.