Introduction and Episode Question

[00:00:03] Paul: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals. 

[00:00:08] Karen: I'm Karen Gimnig. 

[00:00:09] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis.

[00:00:11] Karen: Each episode we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, how can I feel heard? 

The Importance of Feeling Heard

[00:00:19] Paul: One of the things we talk about a lot on this show is techniques and approaches. When we are in conversation to help the other person feel heard.

[00:00:28] Paul: And we talked last week for example, about this idea of validating where the other person is coming from, that their viewpoint makes sense within the context of their experience, the things that they've seen, the data that they've got and things like that. And not dismissing that out of hand.

[00:00:41] Paul: And that's one of the kinds of things that we tend to talk about a lot on this show. But one of the things that Karen and I also know is that when that hearing is a one way street where it feels like a one way street. Where it feels like we are always doing the work. As we've talked about, there's a lot of work involved in doing that kind of thing.

[00:01:02] Paul: When it feels like you are the one who's always doing the work and the other person isn't helping you to feel heard, that can really lead to a place of resentment. Not necessarily because they intend it, it's just what happens. 

Balancing the Emotional Work

[00:01:19] Paul: So what we wanna explore here today are ways that we can actually feel heard when we are in conversation, when we are in disagreement, when we're in dialogue and collaboration with someone who doesn't seem to be doing that very well.

[00:01:32] Karen: And I'm gonna start from the assumption that if you're listening to this podcast, you are a person probably who values the relational space, who values listening deeply, that kind of thing, more than most of the population. And so that a thing that comes with that is if we value it more, we're probably more skilled at it.

[00:01:52] Karen: We're probably paying attention to it more. It probably comes more naturally to us. There's like a lot of reasons that probably the set of people who pay attention to this podcast is as a group that is by definition, better at the listening. More apt to do it. More willing to do it. Bears the load of that more than others that you interact with.

[00:02:13] Karen: And I point this out because what we're gonna talk about strategies for helping to balance it. I think it's unrealistic to think it's ever going to be balanced at least in a good way. I think it's possible to balance it by that I'm not listening either but I don't think we'll find that's a win. So if we're gonna get balance between who's doing the emotional work of the deep listening and the curiosity and the validation and all that stuff that we talked about on the show. It isn't gonna work for us just to wait around until they catch up.

[00:02:46] Karen: 'Cause they probably won't. And it's not gonna work for us to get resentful and grump about it. But there are some things that we can do that add to our skillset, that invite that behavior in others or help them get there. And it's not about getting to parity, it's about shifting the balance towards something that is a little less costly of my energy. 

[00:03:09] Paul: Yeah. That if you are the sort of person who is good at this kind of thing, right? You do it a lot, you are going to be better than 95% of the population and it's incredibly likely that you're gonna end up doing it most of the time.

[00:03:21] Paul: It's really in when you get to those spots where it feels like where you, again, you start to fall into that place of resentment, right? Of really just thinking like, ugh, I'm so tired of being the one who always has to do this. They never listen, right? Always and never are usually my keywords for things need to shift and they often don't need to shift very much.

Personal Experience and Asking for What You Need

[00:03:42] Paul: Years ago I was working for someone who's my boss in an organization. And I would go in and I would say, this is a situation. Here's the problem. Here's what I think we need to do about it. And the answer that I would get back was basically, well, we're gonna do this, this and the other thing.

[00:03:59] Paul: And it really felt like the concerns that I had kept being dismissed, right? There wasn't an acknowledgement of what those concerns were. Finally, after about the third, fourth, fifth time that this happened, I could feel he was within his rights to make the decision to do this, but it really felt like I didn't feel heard.

[00:04:15] Paul: And so at one point I just stopped him and said, before you problem solve on this, I'd like to hear from you, what are my concerns? Like I'd just like to know as you understand them, like what is it that I'm worried about? And then he told me exactly what it was. I had never heard him express those things before.

[00:04:36] Paul: And so what it did was it helped me go, okay, he is actually listening. He's deep in problem solve. Like that's his default mode is we need to find a way through this. And so he's not stopping to acknowledge these sorts of things. And that was all I needed. It wasn't that he then suddenly became incredibly good at saying, so I wanna make sure I understand what you're saying.

[00:04:57] Paul: This and the other thing. It was just enough, it was a little bit of a shift. And then the fact that he then made the decision, that wasn't the thing that I wanted, but I understood why he was making it. I was like, okay, I'm good with it. It's not perfect, but I can live with it. And it was that kind of shift, that was helpful.

Effective Communication Strategies

[00:05:12] Karen: And what I hear you talking about there is you asked for what you needed, like you recognized. And you recognized what I need is to know that he heard me and I have a mechanism by which he can let me know that. So I'm gonna ask for it. And then he did it and it worked, which is just so much more productive than I just wish he'd start being a reasonable person.

[00:05:33] Karen: I just wish he'd actually be responsible. I just wish, right? Like none of that actually works. So getting the judgment out of it, which is the thing we say often, of course. And getting clear about, oh, this is the thing that I need. And I do think that could this person share that direct ask, like you said, can you tell me what you think my concerns are? A phrase I really like for this kind of ask is it would really help me if you would repeat back what you heard me say or that kind of thing. So it's not about if you were really a decent person you would do this thing. It's about I have a need, it would help me out. Would you be willing to, that's another favorite.

[00:06:15] Karen: By the way, would you be willing to, is a great preface for this kind of thing. And it might be what you heard me say, it might be what reasons you think I have for this. It might be what makes sense to you about what I'm saying or what feels true to you about what I'm saying or what are the specific parts of what I'm saying that don't make sense to you. I mean, there are lots of ways to frame it, but I think all those kinds of questions are really entry points for someone who doesn't naturally have the skill to know how to feedback what they're hearing from me, or make me feel validated and heard, and valued to them, but is actually there.

[00:06:58] Karen: Like it gives them that opportunity. So it's almost like a little teaching moment.

[00:07:03] Paul: Ultimately, like when you don't feel heard, you need to figure out what is it that would help you feel heard and be able to ask for that. And that's usually just hearing back from the other person what it was, or as you kind of point sometimes it's the deeper thing, right?

[00:07:16] Paul: And how do you think that makes me feel? Right? Or like, why do you think this is a big deal to me? Like you're asking for some understanding from the other person of your situation. And oftentimes when I teach this kind of stuff, and I imagine you get this as well too, Karen, that people kind of really push back on this sort of paraphrasing and mirroring, because they say, oh, that's really like elementary school or they've had a bad experience with it.

[00:07:40] Paul: And they're really hesitant to do this. On the one hand I understand that because I do think that it can go badly. But the other hand, it is the fundamental tool we actually have for feeling heard, right? Is making a request from the other person that would actually fulfill that need.

Navigating Emotional Tone

[00:07:55] Paul: And so I think really the important thing around it is when we're gonna make that request, what is the emotional tone that we are coming to that with, because that can come across as a put down. That can come across as a gotcha moment. Like I'm gonna ask you to repeat back to me what I said because I want to catch you that you weren't listening.

[00:08:15] Paul: And if that's what we're thinking, as you have pointed out before, we're not actually really good about hiding those kinds of things. We think we are, but the other person feels it. And your preface, for example of like, it would be really helpful to me to hear blah, blah, blah, is one way into that of finding the right emotional tone to ask for this sort of thing in a way that the other person doesn't feel attacked, right?

[00:08:42] Paul: That ideally provokes him into a place of curiosity of if anything else.

[00:08:47] Karen: Yeah, I think you're pointing to one of the things, one of the places, where this can really go wrong. I think it really stems in the end from very often I'm aware that I'm uncomfortable. I'm aware that I'm not happy I'm aware that I'd really like you to do something different than you're doing. 'Cause then I would feel better. Like I get that, but I'm not yet clear about what it is that I'm needing, what's lacking, what's missing for me. And unfortunately when I'm in this, well, I'm doing all the work here and how come they're not doing their part and I want them to do their part.

[00:09:22] Karen: I'm not typically gonna jump straight to, oh, I should do some more deep introspection but a little bit of deep introspection to say, what is the thing I'm actually needing? What is it that i'm missing? And what is it explicitly that they can do that will help me? If I can name that I'm a whole lot more likely to get it. But if I'm in the, like, eh, this doesn't feel great. The likelihood that I do land in that gotcha or that put down kind of tone because I probably do this at all because I'm a little resentful or I'm a little tired or I'm a little frustrated or like something isn't feeling great.

[00:10:03] Karen: And if that irritation comes through without a clear directive, I don't think it's terrible to say you know, I'm just really frustrated 'cause I'm not feeling very heared here. Would you be willing to tell me what you've heard me say? It would really help me out if you would say that. I think that's okay. But if I don't explicitly say I'm frustrated and this is the specific thing I'd like you to do, then it just lands as I'm grumpy and out to get you. 

[00:10:29] Paul: Yeah. And I think naming that, right, the narration is something that I talk a lot about, right? Where it's just like, you know, sometimes you can say things like, I'm gonna ask for something that's maybe a little weird, right? But it's because I'm frustrated. I'm not feeling heard. I mean I was talking with a colleague a little while back about feeling like they were having the same argument over and over and over again with a coworker.

[00:10:52] Paul: And they just, this person felt like they kept repeating themselves. The suggestion was after we talked about this a little bit was to ask the other person, what is it you think that I'm saying? Like, what is the argument here? But the preface on it really was I don't want to repeat what I've already said.

[00:11:09] Paul: Again, if you already know what my argument is, I don't wanna waste your time, so lemme check in on that. Like what do you think my reasons for doing this are. And the way that came across in the actual conversation that followed up from there was much more respectful than the I'm just super frustrated with you because you just keep. Right.

[00:11:30] Paul: That's the thing you wanna avoid. I think there's two pieces of that. One is the getting introspective part, right? And going, what is it that I actually need? How can I make a simple, super short request that's gonna help me get there? Right. I think that can help avoid that and the tone, that emotional tone we don't want.

[00:11:48] Paul: But also thinking about what is the emotional tone that I do want? How do I want this to land? Going into that space in between and being able to say like, I really do want this to land in a collaborative way. It feels to me like we're stuck because we keep going in circles around each other.

[00:12:04] Paul: I think this is a way forward, you know, help. How can we land in that spot? Because the other thing that it does is it kind of breaks whatever log jam you're in. And even if the other person isn't actually able to answer that, you've now kind of shifted something. If Karen, you and I are at loggerheads about something, and I say like, what do you think my reasons are for this?

[00:12:27] Paul: And you actually aren't able to enumerate them. Well, now actually we've got a way forward. Now we've recognized that the real problem is you don't really know what I'm saying. And so I was like, oh, okay, because, now we've changed the dynamic in a way that hopefully can move us forward.

[00:12:45] Karen: I wanna give one other possible context for the same, advice, which is maybe it's not that the person I'm with isn't good at this. Maybe it's that I've been doing it all day, like not with them, right? Like, I am worn out, I'm tired, or maybe I have a headache or I didn't sleep well last night or whatever, but you know, hey, I know in this meeting it's usually my role that I summarize things and I feedback ideas and I clarify and all of those things. I'm just saying I'm not gonna do it very well today and with someone else or you all, if we're in a group meeting or whatever, I'm really relying on other people to do it today.

[00:13:23] Karen: 'Cause I'm not up for it. So not in a blamey way, but I think there are just a lot of context that this comes up that aren't necessarily the one-on-one disagreement space. But that being able to make the request and just even acknowledging like, yeah, I know I usually do this and I'm not gonna, and maybe I have a good reason or maybe I don't even give the reason, but just saying it I think can make a world of difference. 

[00:13:47] Paul: Yeah. 

Preventative Maintenance and Acknowledgment

[00:13:47] Paul: The thing I'll add to this is that if you notice that this is a thing that you do very often, right? What we really talked about is the getting to that place of like, I'm just exasperated, like I really know there's this sort of acute moment when this thing comes to a head. I'm always a big fan of preventative maintenance, so like one of the things that you can be doing if you work with this person often if you interact with 'em a bunch, if you interact in this group a whole lot, it can be really useful that when people do do that, that you acknowledge them for it and appreciate it, right.

[00:14:21] Paul: That you can say, Hey, I, you know, and when we were talking today and you know, we were, you know, you. I really felt heard when I was talking with you about this thing, even though I know you didn't agree with it and you did this and that. And that was really useful to me. So thank you for doing that. If you are able to do that, you start to plant the seeds so that when in the moment where you go, could you just say the thing, right.

[00:14:46] Paul: One, they practice with it. But two, they know what you are asking for. They know how it's helpful. And you've kind of pointed to it. So you know, don't just wait for the moments where it comes to a head. But whenever you're noticing that you are feeling heard, because that is such a rare thing, in so much of our society, the work that we do, the spaces that we live in.

[00:15:10] Paul: Whenever somebody does that, it can be really useful to acknowledge, appreciate, and thank them for that.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

[00:15:17] Karen: So I think where we're working today is really in this space of we as a community of listeners here that we have with you all are people who pay attention to listening well, to listening deeply, to being very present. And we walk through a world where that's relatively rare. And so a lot of the time we're in a space where we're doing the work to be the listener. We're doing the work to be curious, to hear, to validate all that stuff.

[00:15:43] Karen: And we don't get it reciprocated and we get to a point where we really need some reciprocation or we just really need that skill from somebody else. We need to be on the receiving end of that. And when we get to that awareness, what do we do? And one thing that we think is helpful is to be a little introspective and to get clear about, okay, I know I need something. I feel I don't have what I need, but what is that thing? So the clearer the ask can be, the more specific is really helpful. That it's okay to ask for it. It's okay to say, this is the thing that I need.

[00:16:14] Karen: Would you be willing to, or it would really help me if, I think can be super helpful. And we talked about being cautious that it doesn't land as a gotcha or a put down. We don't wanna be in the space of I'm asking you this because I think you weren't listening and then I get to be right and you're knocked down and caught out.

[00:16:31] Karen: We don't wanna do that. We wanna be in the space of, we're trying to connect and trying to feel connected. And tracking that some of the time it's not even because of the dynamic with one other person, it's because of what's already happened for me earlier in the day or some other element of why this is not the moment I wanna be doing the emotional work on behalf of the group.

[00:16:51] Karen: And that's totally legitimate. Another piece that helps with this is that as rare as it is for other people to do this work, it does happen. And so when we see, that little bit of somebody else taking a turn or that glimmer or that piece where they're just starting to do this. If we can name it and appreciate it, it way increases the odds that it will happen again, and sort of solidifies for them, oh, this is a thing that person likes. I should do it with them again. And so we can kind of foster the idea that on an ongoing basis they're going to continue to do more of this sort of emotional work, which hopefully means we get to do a little less of it. 

[00:17:30] Paul: Well, that's gonna do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis. 

[00:17:34] Karen: I'm Karen Gimnig, and this has been Employing Differences.