Introduction to Employing Differences

[00:00:03] Karen: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about the collaborative space between individuals.

[00:00:08] Paul: I'm Paul Tevis. 

[00:00:10] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig.

[00:00:11] Paul: Each episode we start with a question and see where it takes us. 

The Dilemma of Openness vs. Decisiveness

[00:00:15] Paul: This week's question is, do I wanna be open or decisive? 

[00:00:19] Karen: So I think we live in a culture that we've largely rebelled as a culture against the straight up hierarchy of the boss that decides and declares what's going to happen. And that's how this goes. And we've come to really, at least in theory value collaboration and openness and welcoming everybody's ideas.

[00:00:40] Karen: And we don't just dismiss the underling because they're the underling, but we actually, you know, wanna let the cleaner who happens to notice the thing that's really needed like that we let that voice into the room kind of thing. Like there's a real value for that kind of story. And it creates, I think, a dilemma of we can go too far the other way, right?

[00:01:00] Karen: So if we're super decisive all the time, then we get staff who only do what they think we want them to do and we don't get good collaboration and a bunch of ideas that would be useful. Never get into the room at all. But if we go the other way and we're super open and we're super invitational and we're extra collaborative, and we're always gonna ask, well what do you think?

[00:01:21] Karen: And what do you want and what would you like? We can get ourselves into a whole other set of mess. Because there are times where being decisive is useful and there are times where being open and collaborative is useful. 

The Pitfalls of Misaligned Intentions

[00:01:33] Karen: And I think the biggest danger, and I think the one we wanna play with here is when in my head I'm decisive, but in my approach or the way I present myself, I'm open.

[00:01:45] Karen: And if what's in my head and what's coming out of my mouth don't match, we're gonna have all kinds of trouble in the space between.

[00:01:52] Paul: Yeah, this really shows up where you have, there's a dynamic between two people. That's asymmetric in some way. So it could be that you are the expert, right?

[00:02:01] Paul: And I'm, a participant in a thing. It could be that you are my boss and I work for you. It could be an informational imbalance, it could be an authority imbalance. It could be any of those things. 

Balancing Authority and Collaboration

[00:02:15] Paul: And as you said, like many of us have really internalized the value of being collaborative even when that imbalance exists.

[00:02:21] Paul: That, you know, I still get a voice, right, that I should still be part of what's going on. That whatever authority or expertise or whatever it is you have, doesn't make you a better person than I am. Like I think we buy into that. But I think the problem is when you as the expert or as the leader, have an opinion that is somewhat strongly held.

[00:02:43] Paul: And maybe you've been thinking about a decision for a while and you've gone, you know, fairly far down the road. And you ask a question of me that makes it seem like you haven't thought about this at all, or you have no opinion, or you have no perspective on this and that mine is just as well researched and valid in whatever as yours is when that's not the case.

[00:03:07] Paul: You know that because you've learned that you are supposed to help me feel heard, right? And you want to be collaborative, and so you do that. And my contention is, is that hiding your perspective, hiding your opinion, your point of view is not collaborative. Sharing it is actually a much better basis for collaboration and actually hiding it when you have it is manipulative.

[00:03:35] Paul: And when other people realize that, that damages that relationship and that space between. 

Practical Examples of Decision-Making

[00:03:42] Karen: Yeah, I think this is even true, if there isn't the kind of authority and hierarchy in play that you're talking about, I mean, I think it's a hundred percent true and it's more likely to show up in those spaces. But even if it's, you know, my husband and I on absolute balance, thinking about where do we wanna go for dinner.

[00:03:56] Karen: If I start with, well, where do you wanna go? But really in my heart of hearts, I'm in the mood for Mexican tonight. And he says, oh, well let's go for Chinese. And I'm like, yeah, I'm not really in the mood for that. And he's, oh, well let's go to that pizza place. Yeah. I'm not in. Right. We could've avoided all of that agony by me just saying, I'm in the mood for Mexican that worked for you.

[00:04:14] Karen: Because most days he didn't have an idea yet. So I think one of the dangers that we have when we play that well, I'm being really open, so I'm asking what you think. Well, if you don't think yet, right? If you don't have an opinion yet, but I know where I wanna land, why on earth would I ask you to form an opinion that has decent odds of being different than mine, and now we're at odds?

[00:04:36] Karen: Like many cases we're way better off for my, you know, if somebody's got an idea and they're clear what they want and everybody else is good. Don't put them through the process of landing somewhere else. 

Strategies for Effective Collaboration

[00:04:49] Karen: So I think the hierarchy thing is a piece of it, but also just like if I know what I want, it's way easier for people to connect with me if I say what I want and I have to say it in a frame that says, this is what I'm thinking and now I'm making room for you.

[00:05:05] Karen: So this is what I'm thinking. Are you in the mood for that? This is what I'm thinking, do you have different information than I have? This is what I'm thinking, what am I missing about that? Like there are lots of ways to follow it up with genuine curiosity, genuine interest and genuine openness. But still to have led with the decisiveness of, I got a plan.

[00:05:25] Paul: Yes. And in some cases, like one of the things you're pointing to is that you've actually done some work and so you're willing to let the other person opt out of doing that work. It's like the dinner thing, I don't know, it's just like a continual issue around groups.

[00:05:38] Paul: Where are we gonna go? What are we gonna do? My current version of that is always, I wasn't sure what we were gonna do about dinner. But here are three places that I would be open for and, you know, I'm not necessarily attached to any of those if there's something else you wanna do.

[00:05:53] Paul: Right. Because now I've put something out there that the other person can respond to. And it's not just a yes no on Mexican, right. It's like, oh, actually, I'd be happy to choose from any of those. They're like, Ooh, two of those don't work for me. That third one does great. And now we're done. Right? The conversation's just over and we both get something that we want.

[00:06:11] Paul: So I've had to do a little bit more thinking about how I'm gonna put that out there. But it actually is way more collaborative because we now both have gotten input into it. And I think that's the kind of thing that is really useful to do is to put some more narration and context around the thing that you're doing.

Navigating Group Dynamics

[00:06:32] Paul: So like, this shows up a lot with some of my executive coaching clients where they're like, well, I wanna bring this to the group 'cause I wanna get their input, right? I wanna talk with all of my managers and see what they think about this, right? And I'm like, how far down that decision making road are you?

[00:06:46] Paul: And they're like, oh, I'm pretty committed to this. I really just want them to double check my thinking. To see like, have I overlooked something on this? I'm like, cool. So don't go to them and say, what do you think we should do? Go to them and say, here's what I'm thinking. Here's the research that I've done.

[00:07:03] Paul: Here's the conclusion that I've come to. Here's what I think the benefits of this doing are. Here are some drawbacks that I see. What else are you noticing that I might be missing? Because if there's nothing else, we're gonna move forward with this option. That is a way of letting people in to say, here is fully where I'm at.

[00:07:24] Paul: And when they say, you do realize that if we do that, that's gonna cost us $3 million a year because it's in violation of this particular thing. And you go, oh, I didn't know that. Tell me more about that. Like, let's go. Right? So you're not saying this is happening no matter what. You're making clear what the parameters of engagement are. And so now people know how to engage with you.

[00:07:48] Paul: As opposed to if you go in and say, what do you think we should do? And people start throwing out ideas and you're shooting them down because they're not the plan you think you're gonna go with. That's what I mean about the difference between it being actually collaborative and feeling manipulative.

Adapting Leadership Styles

[00:08:04] Karen: And I think the trick to this is that we don't wanna show up the same way every time. So I think we adopt a management style, or a leadership style, or a collaboration style or a group. I'm in a group kind of, this is how I show up in a group style. And often we adopt that I'm gonna ask a question first.

[00:08:23] Karen: I'm gonna get what everybody else thinks before I put my idea out there, because that's what being collaborative looks like. And I think what we're saying here is sometimes that's a perfect thing to do because I'm in a space where I don't care very much, or I don't think I know as much as other people.

[00:08:38] Karen: So I wanna get their opinions before I form my own, because there's other expertise that I don't wanna miss. And sometimes that's not the thing. So we don't wanna have one mode for, this is how I socialize an idea in a group. We want to stop and ask ourselves the question of the day. So I wanna stop and say, is this a situation in which I want to be really open because I'm looking for lots of ideas and input and I don't think I know the answer yet.

[00:09:04] Karen: Or is this a place where I wanna be decisive? I think I do know the answer, and I'm just either trying to get them on board. Or looking for their input, in case I'm wrong. Like I'm open to, maybe I'm wrong, but I think I know and then there's this whole space in between where I'm some amount of decisive.

[00:09:20] Karen: I know for sure I don't want Chinese tonight, but I'd probably be open to anything else. That's a middle ground, right? Where we want some mix of this is the extent to which I'm wanna be decisive and this is the extent to which I don't. And sometimes I'm decisive about not being decisive. I mean, the dinner question is such a good example.

[00:09:40] Karen: 'Cause sometimes what I say is I don't wanna decide, like, I really don't wanna be part of this. I really want somebody else to figure it out. Okay. That's a version of open, although it's also a version of decisive. But if I can be clear about where I am, then that particular situation can go well. But if I'm always in my one mode of super welcoming, super open, or super decisive, this is the way it is.

[00:10:05] Karen: Neither of those is likely to work for everything.

[00:10:08] Paul: Yeah. And that's the whole point of having that range of responses and styles and modes that you can work in. Because it means you can pick the right one for the situation you're actually in. As opposed to just doing the pattern that you'll always do. This is part of growth, right?

[00:10:21] Paul: I've struggled with this myself because I tend to be very, very open and not very decisive. And just so practicing it can be useful. I will also say there's another thing that I wanna point out, which is there are times where you may recognize because of asymmetry, because of hierarchy, because of any of these sorts of things and because of who you are working with, that you simply expressing an opinion or a perspective is gonna put your thumb on the scale in a way that you don't want.

[00:10:49] Paul: And the way that I recommend that people handle that, is being upfront about it. Actually saying, so I wanna have some discussion about this. I have thought about this already and I do have some opinions and some perspectives on it, but I'm gonna go last because I know that that might influence you.

[00:11:08] Paul: I want to hear what you're thinking about first, and then I will share what I'm thinking. But say that part, right? Because now you're not hiding it. Because I think that's where we get in trouble like we recognize, hey, I wanna hear from other people first. Because I don't want to unduly influence them, but I'm pretending like I haven't thought about this at all.

[00:11:28] Paul: That's the manipulation part. Instead just say like, you know, I wanna hear what you think and then I will share what I think. So that now we can have that on the table because now my, you know, perspective, 'cause you don't know what I was thinking, so I'm not gonna unduly influence you in that way.

[00:11:41] Paul: You then have to be really good about not reacting when people are suggesting things. So that they aren't just like looking at you trying to read like they're fishing for what your answer is. Like, you need to be able to deal with that, right? And say like, look, you know, and I think doing that, again, being clear, knowing where you're at with things and being open in terms of telling the other person, here's where I am with this.

[00:12:05] Paul: Here's what I would like for you to do, and then I'll share what's going on. That's another mode of collaboration that I think can be useful when we're in situations like this. And having, as you said, multiple different modes, multiple different ways that you can go about this, is really the key to being able to navigate a wide variety of situations.

Self-Awareness in Decision-Making

[00:12:25] Karen: I think that's so true and I wanna key in on one thing you said early in that last piece, which was your tendency is to be very open and you've had to train yourself to be more decisive. My tendency is to be very decisive and I've had to train myself to be more open. And I think that's useful information because, for one thing, as you and I work together too.

[00:12:46] Karen: Like you can learn about me. Oh, Karen tends to be really decisive, so she's sounding really decisive. That doesn't mean I can't push back, right? Whereas, and then I go, well, Paul's sounding really open, but that may not mean he is. I might wanna get a little curious about what he really thinks, right?

[00:13:01] Karen: So we can learn about each other, but also as I learn it about myself, like I am very unlikely to make the mistake of seeming too open. That's not a place where I tend to make the mistake. So if I'm checking myself, I probably wanna check on the side of am I open enough? Am I too decisive? Like I wanna shift towards a thing that feels a little more open, that is really comfortable for me.

[00:13:25] Karen: 'Cause I know I tend the other way. And you're probably doing the opposite, where you're shifting towards, okay, I should be a little more decisive. Like if I'm in a more decisive feeling space, that's probably gonna work better. 'Cause I know I tend the other way. So that self-knowledge piece about our tendencies I think is super useful and it's also useful to share.

[00:13:44] Karen: I'm actually in the midst of a remodel and I said to the contractor early on, like, people tend to think that I am more forceful in my decisions because I insist, like I ask a lot of questions and I insist on getting the reasoning, and I want you to push back because you have to be the expert here. But I said it explicitly and my husband stood next to me and said, no, she means that you're supposed to say no if it's a bad idea.

[00:14:07] Karen: But I had to say it because I know that people misread me that way, and I'm not good enough at shifting how I present to solve it by itself. So that really explicit, I may come off this way, but this is what I really want, which is what you were describing in another frame. I think it's super useful. 

Conclusion and Key Takeaways

[00:14:24] Paul: So to track where we've been today, we're talking about this notion of being open or decisive, right? The idea that many of us, particularly I think listeners of the show, you know, have internalized this notion of we wanna be collaborative, right? We wanna be open to influence by others. We want to treat other people's opinions with respect.

[00:14:42] Paul: We wanna get curious about what's going on with other people, and that sometimes we can do that to a degree that isn't actually useful in the situation that we are in. And in particular, if we have opinions and we have perspectives and we are concealing them from another person, we might think that that is helping to create collaboration, but instead it can really feel like manipulation because oftentimes other people can figure it out.

[00:15:10] Paul: They realize that you actually do have a perspective, and you're hiding it from them and that doesn't feel great. And that lands in that space between, in a way that isn't particularly good. We've talked about a lot of different sort of styles that you can use, you know, ways that you can disclose sort of what you're thinking.

[00:15:27] Paul: Here's where I am in the decision making process. I'm still very much at the beginning and I want to get ideas out on the table. So let's just put some out there. You can be close to the end. Hey, I really want your input on these things to make sure that I'm not overlooking a downside that might occur.

[00:15:44] Paul: Being able to say both of those things and to operate in both of those spaces, right? To be able to go to the group where you can be really open, but also to go to a group and say, look, I am pretty close to a decision and I'm curious about what you're thinking, but I may disagree with you and I may still go ahead with that decision.

[00:16:01] Paul: Being able to do that as well, can be really, really useful. But largely what we're talking about is if you want to be collaborative, you have to give the other person, the other people, something to collaborate with, something to build on. So that can be some disclosure about where you are. That can be some disclosure about how you naturally tend to come off.

[00:16:23] Paul: That can be some disclosure around what you are and aren't thinking at that point. Because if you're just completely open and you just have a wide green field that they can put anything into. There's no you there for them to collaborate with. And similarly, if you landed at that other end of the spectrum where you're just making all of the decisions, there's no them there for you to collaborate with.

[00:16:46] Paul: So it's about finding ways to land at the appropriate point along that spectrum given the situation you're in, given the time that you have given the quality of decision you need to make, what decision you need to address, and how you actually want that space to work between you, in that moment, around that decision, around that particular thing.

[00:17:06] Karen: Well, that's gonna do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Karen Gimnig. 

[00:17:10] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis, and this has been Employing Differences.