Introduction

[00:00:03] Paul: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

[00:00:08] Karen: I'm Karen Gimnig. 

[00:00:10] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis.

[00:00:11] Karen: Each episode we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, when can I expect that? 

The Challenge of Time Estimates

[00:00:19] Paul: Having spent a good chunk of my career in software and in the technology space, estimates of time are like one of the most fraught things that I've ever had to deal with. And inevitably they are actually kind of important, right? That there's some person who needs to make some decision based on how long they think a thing that I'm working on is gonna take.

[00:00:42] Paul: It turns out that this is a sort of conversation that I've lots of times, not just in my work. But in my personal life about, hey, you know, a thing's gonna happen. You'd said you were gonna do this thing. When can I expect that we're gonna have lunch? When can I expect that this project will be done? When can I expect, you know, sort of any number of things.

[00:01:01] Paul: What Karen and I have both come to realize is that asking that question directly can be really fraught, can have some pretty negative consequences on that space between. So we wanna explore a little bit today why that is. And what we can do about it when we're actually honestly trying to get some information that's gonna help us plan better around kind of whatever the answer to that question is.

[00:01:25] Paul: So that's what we're here to dig into today.

[00:01:28] Karen: Yeah. 

Cultural Norms and Communication

[00:01:29] Karen: I think somewhere along the line, our culture decided that it wasn't nice or professional or kind or something. To say, Hey, I need that you know, I need it today. Can you get it done by then? Or something like that where we say what we're looking for, say what we need, or just say, I thought you were gonna be done by now, where is it? Things like that. That all of that got painted as very negative, so we don't say that anymore. What we say instead is, when do you think you could get that to me? And the problem is if what we actually mean is I would like the information about when you think you're going to have that done, it's the same words as, Hey, you're overdue.

[00:02:16] Karen: I want it now. And so it's very difficult now in the culture to discern which thing is meant if we just go and say, when do you think you might have that done? And a lot of confusion ensues. 

[00:02:30] Paul: Yes. 

Misunderstandings in Asking for Timelines

[00:02:31] Paul: We've talked a little bit about this before, that oftentimes we don't ask for the thing, or oftentimes we disguise things behind questions. Then people respond to that question in a way that we are maybe surprised by and maybe disappointed by. You're like, that's not the words that I used.

[00:02:47] Paul: Like, I didn't actually say I need that thing from you now. You're a terrible person. Why haven't you gotten it for me so far? And yet that seems to be the way they heard the question of when can I expect that? I think they're not wrong to do that, right? Because 90% of the time when somebody asks about like, so when will you have that for me?

[00:03:03] Paul: Or, you know, when will it be done? Or things like that. That's actually what they mean. What they mean is, is I need it now. You must be sandbagging. Like, what's going on here? I think we've been programmed to sort of hear that even when that's not what the speaker meant. And so it can be really hard to actually ask to make that request for information in a way that the other person doesn't hear it that way.

[00:03:29] Paul: You know, It's not that they're wrong, they're just wrong in this specific instance, you know, they're generally right.

[00:03:33] Karen: Yeah. 

Strategies for Clear Communication

[00:03:39] Karen: So I think that, you know, recognizing that there's I think advice we can give to the speaker, the person asking the question, and also advice we can give to the receiver of that question, the person whose task it is that's being asked for the information about how to get clarity when the language, because of our culture doesn't have a clear meaning.

[00:03:57] Karen: And so I think from the sending perspective. So if I'm the one going, I just, it would really help me to know when that thing is going to happen. Could be today, could be next week, doesn't matter to me. If that's my frame, then I need to say something like that. And, it feels like way too many words and sort of like I'm backpedaling.

[00:04:16] Karen: But I think this is what being polite in the office world looks like now where I come and say, hey Paul, I know we talked about doing this thing and we weren't clear about the timeline, or I know the timeline might have changed, and I'm good. I'm not trying to push you, I'm just asking because I'll do something different based on whether you're gonna do it today or tomorrow or next week. So I'm just asking for information. When do you think you might have that for me? 

[00:04:43] Paul: Yeah. I do something very similar. And being really clear about the fact that it is a purely informational request knowing that it can come across as nagging, as whatever it is. And I will try to flag that. I'll make it clear what I'm gonna do with that information, right? I will say things like, it doesn't make a difference to me around this thing.

[00:05:04] Paul: I just wanna know, should I do this thing now because you're gonna be a couple of hours on this thing, or should I wait for you because it's gonna be 10 minutes and then we'll do this thing together. Like, that's the, I try to make it clear. I'm just asking. So that I can make a choice about what I'm gonna do.

[00:05:21] Paul: And so I just need to know. So I try to flag that, right? This just affects a decision I'm gonna make. And I try to make it very clear about what the decision is because sometimes when I'll throw that out there, the other person will say, oh, that will actually influence what they're gonna do.

[00:05:37] Paul: But they might also tell me, they might give me information that is useful because they know what I'm gonna do. That it actually helps me. They go, oh, actually it's gonna be more like 12 hours, so you should probably come back tomorrow. I was like, oh, okay, great. But they're more willing to volunteer that information because they know that I'm not gonna use it to beat them up.

Clarifying Intentions and Preferences

[00:05:56] Karen: And I think that also I can be, not beating them up, but still stating a preference if I have one, right? So if my real chance is, gosh, it would really be better for me if you could get this done in the next hour. But if it's not, then I need to make contingency plans. Like if you can't, you can't, like, again, I'm not trying to beat you up, but I think it's okay to say like, man, it would really help me if this could get done, or I have a small preference for that to be done.

[00:06:21] Karen: It's a little easier if you do this sooner than later, but I can live with it. Like I can adapt as long as I know that kind of thing. So I think part of it is to start with clarity in my own head. And we say this about so many conversations that if I can get clear in my own head that I am interested in the information, you know, why I'm interested in the information, why it matters to me.

[00:06:44] Karen: And how strong my preference is, how much it matters to me that I can be prepared to communicate that. Then hopefully the person on the other end can receive that and understand what's actually in my head, and then if they respond to what's actually in my head, we're less likely to get sideways. 

[00:07:03] Paul: And that's what we talked about on a previous episode where, they imagine that there's a different question behind your question. And what you're doing by doing that is you're actually interrupting that story by you putting where you're coming from into the space between, right, into the shared pool of meaning, right?

[00:07:20] Paul: Where you're saying, or shared pool of understanding, right? That you're saying, I'm asking about this. Here's what I'm gonna do with this information. Here's the preference that I have. Here's the strength of that preference. The other person now has a lot more to work with in order to give you a good answer.

[00:07:33] Paul: And they also have a lot of things that contradict the story. That you're just trying to beat them up.

Handling Unclear Requests

[00:07:39] Karen: So if we look at it now from the other side, so now Paul has just come to me and said, Hey Karen, when are you gonna have that thing done? And I'm sitting here going- 

[00:07:50] Paul: And I haven't done a good job of doing what all the stuff that we just talked about. Because never count on anybody else doing that. 

[00:07:56] Karen: Exactly. So now I don't know what he actually wants. I don't know how much he wants it. Right. I don't know what his preference is and I don't know how strong his preference is. And I don't actually know if he's like grumpy with me that I haven't done it yet, or if he's just looking for information, like I just don't know any of that.

[00:08:13] Karen: It's a really good idea to know that you don't know it. Like I don't know what he means. So I probably wanna ask. And so, I think it's totally fair if somebody comes up and says, Hey, when do you think you'll have this thing done? To say, did you need it at a particular time? Or are you just looking for information? What is it you want from me here? And hopefully that gets you through. So that then they will give you the information that we were proposing. They ideally would've volunteered, but you know, we all work among humans, so odds are, it won't always happen, and this is one of these lovely cases where either party can fix the miscommunication if we're thoughtful about it. 

Responding to Defensiveness

[00:08:57] Paul: It's certainly, I think it's often more challenging when you're in that sort of receiver position where you get that question because like all those things that we just said about how that question can make you defensive, that that's in our culture. Guess what? That probably happening to you in that moment.

[00:09:13] Paul: And so, part of it is also recognizing that and just going, you know, this is a thing I tell myself quite often. It's perfectly understandable that I would get defensive right now. Now what do I wanna do about that? Right? And to be able to sink back in. And I think that then it's also important that when you're trying to draw out of that other person, the things they didn't volunteer, to be able to do it. That is a way that feels more collaborative and like partnership and less like being defensive because you can ask exactly the same question, well, what do you need to know that for?

[00:09:43] Paul: What are you gonna do with that information? You can do that in that way. That really just makes the other person frustrated. It makes it seem like you're being defensive and cagey and not wanting to say a thing. And now maybe they do wanna beat you up, but you can also do it in such a way, like, I wanna make sure I'm giving you the information that you need.

[00:09:58] Paul: I don't want to jump to assumptions and conclusions here about this. So let me understand, like, is do you need this by a particular time? What would the impact of it, it being here by that or not? Okay, great. You need to do it in a way that the other person feels like the conversation is moving forward.

[00:10:15] Paul: As you're talking with them, not that you're stonewalling or not that you're trying to be evasive or things like that. And that's really dependent on the nature of the relationship you have with the other person, what exactly the words are. Although I do, like, I go back to the thing that you say all the time and you grade this as an example of when you're asking, you know, of saying like, Hey, it would really help me if.

[00:10:36] Paul: Right? That's a great way to start this. It would really help. I can answer your question, but it would really help me if I knew a few more things about what you needed first. And put that in there. So you've gotta find a way to draw that information out of them in a way that they're willing to give it to you, that they're willing to put it out there.

[00:10:55] Karen: Yeah. And all of this takes, you know, what we think of as being very few words and using lots more words. And I just wanna say that there could be a case where somebody comes up and says, hey, when do you think you'll have that done? And my answer is five minutes, and that's really true, and it's gonna be done in five minutes.

[00:11:10] Karen: Okay. Then we don't need to even go through all of this, right? So like, I just wanna name that. What we're saying is like avoid the misunderstanding and whatever when you can, but also you don't have to prolong every single conversation. 

[00:11:23] Paul: Agreed. And, you know, you can do things like, you can do the thing I will often do is I, like, I was thinking about getting to that this afternoon. Does that work for you? Right. That's the other thing you can do is you can give your answer as you conceive of it now, and check and see like, are you just asking for information?

[00:11:41] Paul: There's something else that I don't know about that's going on. And even more the, like, I was planning on getting it to that this afternoon. I could get to it this morning. Is there something that, you know, do you have a preference between the two? Would it be useful to you if, is there something that I don't know about, like, I made the decision to defer this because I've got this other thing.

[00:12:00] Paul: Is there something I should know? So you can just volunteer the information and then also go into that place of, now let's talk about is the answer I gave you workable.

[00:12:10] Karen: Yeah, I think that's a great idea. And the other thing that I think often is true. 

The Importance of Honesty

[00:12:14] Karen: And I'll say this happens probably more in my personal life than in my business life, but it can, and if it's true, it's the useful thing to say, which is, I don't know. I don't know how long it's gonna take. I don't know what other things are gonna get thrown at me.

[00:12:27] Karen: You know, I'm answering phones today for some reason, and depends on how many times that rings, like who knows what. But there are plenty of times that we've got a task that's on the list. We don't actually know when it will be done. Is there a time you need it by? Could be a follow up to that or you know, maybe this leads to a conversation about if you need it for sure then you need somebody else to answer the phones.

[00:12:51] Karen: Like, this is what I'm going to need in order to meet that expectation. So there are lots of ways this conversation can go and I think what I wanna come to is the one thing that I really recommend not doing in this situation is saying something that isn't actually true. Which we do when we're defensive, right?

[00:13:08] Karen: If Paul comes at me and he's my boss especially, and I think he wants it sooner, and I'm all defensive because you know, he didn't do the thing of letting me know, that he was just looking for information. And I go into my defensive space. And so I am like, he wants it soon. What's the most optimistic version of when it might be done?

[00:13:29] Karen: I'll tell him that. And maybe I'll get lucky. 

[00:13:33] Paul: Yeah, we generally don't think that that's a good idea, and in fact, we're gonna talk about that particular thing on next week's episode.

[00:13:40] Karen: What, what, what to do when you've already done that or when, when life changes. But yeah, so I think on both sides, being honest, and clear about where you are, what you need. What is real about this situation including what you don't know. Like it may seem unreasonable to say, I don't know what I'm gonna get it done.

[00:13:57] Karen: But there are all kinds of times in my world that I don't know, and even times that I don't know, but I could know if you really need me to, like, if you're telling me this is a bigger priority than the five other things that I was gonna try to do first, then I can tell you I'll do it next. Or not, right?

Conclusion and Next Steps

[00:14:13] Karen: So, I think a lot of this comes down to on both sides be clear about what you know, what you need, what you're actually asking for, what you want, and then use the words that will end up communicating that in the tone that will end up communicating that and also communicate and interest or curiosity. A flexibility. A willingness to be collaborative.

[00:14:35] Paul: You know, all those things we generally tell people to do.

[00:14:37] Karen: For sure. 

[00:14:38] Paul: Well, that's gonna do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis. 

[00:14:42] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig, and this has been Employing Differences.