Introduction to Employing Differences

[00:00:03] Karen: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

[00:00:09] Paul: I'm Paul Tevis. 

[00:00:10] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig.

[00:00:11] Paul: Each episode we start with the question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, oops, should I tell them? 

Setting Expectations Around Time

[00:00:19] Karen: So we're really picking up this week kind of from where we left off last episode, which was about setting expectations around time. So we talked last week about having a conversation about when might this be done? When might I have that project? When will the next step be? All that kind of thing.

[00:00:36] Karen: And how it's really useful to get clear and have honest, clear, collaborative communication about that. 

Facing the Reality of Missed Deadlines

[00:00:42] Karen: So now we're gonna fast forward that scenario. You've had a conversation, you've said, yep, I can have that done tomorrow, or I can have that done in an hour, or I can have that done in a week, whatever the timeline is.

[00:00:55] Karen: And now I'm going along about my life having said that. And realize that's not gonna happen, maybe because I did something wrong, maybe because something happened I had no control over. Maybe it's just taking longer than I guessed. For whatever reason, the thing that came out of my mouth about when was this gonna be done is no longer true. Should I tell them? 

[00:01:17] Karen: And it won't surprise you. I think if you listen to the show to know that we're going to say, yes, you should tell them.

[00:01:23] Paul: Yeah. 

The Fear of Disappointing Others

[00:01:32] Paul: And I think it's important to understand why we often don't like what, because it is very common for us to, even when we know that that date we gave them that, you know, commitment we made, that it's incredibly unlikely that that's gonna happen. I think very oftentimes we hold out hope against hope, like we know it's like 99% likely that we're gonna blow right past that deadline.

[00:01:51] Paul: We go, maybe this Is the 1%, maybe it'll be okay. Why do we do that? I think it's important to explore that. I mean, I think one element of it is that we don't like to disappoint people. I could very often, like, we're worried about what people will think about us, when we don't meet commitments like that.

[00:02:10] Paul: And so we try to hide those things to go, it'll reflect badly on me. They will think that I'm incompetent. They'll think, you know, maybe they'll think that I deceived them, that I always knew I could never make this date. Sometimes that's actually true. But we're assuming in this case that's not.

[00:02:25] Paul: But that we're worried about how that will reflect on us. And so we hold out hope. That they'll never find out that there was a problem, that we're somehow able to recover from that and make it up. Because we're worried about what the consequences of admitting that there's a problem will be. 

The Impact of Delayed Communication

[00:02:44] Karen: I also think there's a version of this that they asked what I thought, I told them what I thought. I haven't given another thought to that conversation at all. I haven't thought about what it mattered to them, why it mattered to them, what it meant, and now I'm just doing my job and it's taking as long as it needs to take.

[00:03:00] Karen: And it's not like I could have done anything to make it different. It just is what it is. And so I told them where things were then, and when it comes up, I'll tell them where they are again. It seems very reasonable, sort of when I explain it that way. But the problem is how it feels on the other end.

[00:03:19] Karen: Because, I mean, maybe this is a project where nobody actually cares the timing and then you're gonna get away with that. But if the person on the other end mattered , cared about it, if it mattered to them. Then what's happening is they gathered some information and now they're making decisions on the basis of that information.

[00:03:37] Karen: They're planning their life, they're doing their next project. They're deciding something dependent on the information that you gave them, and even if the information that you gave them was a little bit iffy, and we all knew that. They still asked for it for a reason, and now that it's changed. If you never say to them, I know I told you it was gonna be done this week. It's not. And this is why, or whatever. If you don't say the part about, I know I told you, you will break trust.

[00:04:09] Paul: It's fascinating. There's also a, article I read years and years and years ago when I thought I was gonna become a project manager by Richard Brenner called, Saying No, A Tutorial For Project Managers, where he talks about organizational dynamics that lead to this, where it's like, you know, that there's no way this is gonna happen.

[00:04:26] Paul: And yet as a project manager, you don't say that. So he talks about saying yes, it's totally in scare quotes. And he says it's because oftentimes in organizations bad news like that, news of delays or things like that can be punished. Like that people react badly to those sorts of surprises, to those sort of violations of their expectations.

[00:04:46] Paul: And so what you're really hoping for is that someone else will have to admit that they're gonna delay the project before you have to say anything. He calls this schedule chicken. And it comes from this really weird thing in organizations where people do react negatively, we talked last episode about you know, when you get asked about how long is that gonna take?

[00:05:08] Paul: It's very easy to hear that someone is, you know, but they're really saying is I need it now. But they're not actually using those words. This is that same sort of dynamic where it's like, I don't even want to get asked the question, or I don't want to volunteer myself for being interrogated about, why is it taking so long, you know, sort of thing.

[00:05:26] Paul: And so we don't bring it up. We know there's a problem, maybe even somebody asks. But we don't, you know, we say, oh, everything's green, everything's good. Like, we'll be able to move forward because we're worried about the consequences. What I think is really the thing that you're pointing at, Karen, is we underestimate the consequences of not bringing it up. 

[00:05:46] Karen: Yeah. 

Real-Life Example: Construction Delays

[00:05:47] Karen: I'm having a construction project done on my home, so this is a classic place where everything takes longer than you think it's gonna take. And I'm having this experience with my contractor who I think is a really good guy, and he is trying to give me good information. But I think that he's in the space of thinking about, oh, who do I schedule next and who do I get in and how do we get the work done, and how are we gonna fix this project or that project?

[00:06:07] Karen: He's not in the head space of what's going on for my client, which it is. So I'm in the head space of when is this the piece gonna be done so that I know that I need to do this or that? Or how long am I not gonna have the use of the kitchen, and how do I plan my meals for that? And how do I plan my shopping for that?

[00:06:25] Karen: And, you know, what I'm willing to do for a, like limited menu for two weeks, maybe I wouldn't wanna do for two months, but week by week we're getting closer and closer to two months on a thing that I thought was two weeks. And so what happens if you don't say, Hey, I know I told you that, but it's changed. Is the other person, the consequences for the other person go up?

[00:06:47] Karen: Like, I'm not happy that it's delayed. I mean, I'm not gonna be like, great, it's longer. But if I know that it's longer, early, then I can incorporate that, like I have a better chance to mitigate the downside. But if I just kind of figure out week by week, oh, I guess it's not happening this week again, and maybe I ask the question again and then I get another update that turns out not to be true again.

[00:07:12] Karen: That the frustration level can get pretty high about that, and it's not necessary. Like I went into this knowing that construction's iffy. I went into it knowing that things could go differently than we expected and some of what's gone differently is that things were in the walls that he would didn't know he was gonna find or whatever.

[00:07:30] Karen: Like it's legitimately probably not his fault. I think he was probably overly optimistic, if I'm honest, which is the thing we talked about last episode. Don't do that thing. 

The Importance of Early Communication

[00:07:41] Karen: But I also think that for me, the experience would be so much better and the frustration of not knowing would be so much less if he'd come back and say, you know, I know I told you three weeks ago it was gonna be next week.

[00:07:55] Karen: And yeah, we had to take out a major thing and it's not coming back till after the inspectors, which is probably four weeks from now. Like if he had said that to me a month ago, I wouldn't be nearly as frustrated with him today. Even if everything except that communication had been exactly what it is.

[00:08:11] Paul: Yeah, and what that points at is something that I try to remember and advise people to do and do myself, right, sort of thing. Which is that, this is kind of the treating people as adults thing. It's like trusting that people can actually hear things that they don't want to hear and figure out how to deal with it.

[00:08:31] Paul: And so you're like, do I want it to be four weeks before my kitchen is working again? No, but if I know that I will be miffed briefly and then I will figure out what I'm gonna do. Okay. How am I gonna work with that? As opposed to the every week getting the, well, it's gonna take another week. Well, it's gonna be a week.

[00:08:48] Paul: It's gonna be another week. Because there you're like, now you start to not trust anything that the other person's telling you. Right. 

Building Trust Through Transparency

[00:08:55] Paul: But I think if we can say, like, I know that you don't wanna hear this and you might even be a little upset with me, but I want you to have this information so that now you can make whatever decisions you need to make.

[00:09:06] Paul: Because I trust that you were probably making some decisions based on the initial number that I gave you. And what you can do there is start to get curious about the whole, like what is that gonna affect for you? Like how might I actually be able to help you? You're again inviting the other person into that place.

[00:09:22] Paul: You're stepping into that place of collaboratives, problem solving, but also potentially inviting the other person into it to say like, I know that I don't know everything that's going on with you. Like, is this gonna be a big problem? Because we might be able to expedite a thing. We might be able to do, or whatever have you.

[00:09:36] Paul: Or if it's just gonna be like, no, okay, great. There's nothing we can really do about it. But I want you to know that and is there anything that I can do to support you or whatever that is, like, that's a thing that becomes possible when we admit what we know, which is there is a problem.

[00:09:52] Paul: The information we gave the person initially is no longer true or unlikely to be true. You also run into this case where you're like 90% chance that we are going right past that deadline. There's a possibility, but I wouldn't count on it. So I think you should start thinking about what your contingency is gonna be, kind of thing.

[00:10:10] Paul: I think human beings actually have a remarkable capacity for working with that kind of thing. And we underestimate people's ability to do that. And so we hide it from them instead. And I think that that's one of the useful places to lean into is to go, I don't know everything about what's going on with other person.

[00:10:28] Paul: Out of respect, I want to give them the information. Then I trust that they can handle it.

[00:10:32] Karen: I think that's exactly the game. And I think we get into this all from good intentions. I mean, I think we're trying to be nice. I think we're trying to please the client. I think we're trying to not get ourselves in trouble, but also not get our team in trouble. People pleasing is a big part of this, I think.

[00:10:45] Karen: Like, I think it shows up in all kinds of ways. The thing that I think is super sneaky about this is that the person who made the estimate and then it changed and they didn't tell that it changed. They don't think they're being dishonest, but it feels dishonest to the person on the other side.

[00:11:04] Karen: So you've got somebody who's going along, doing hard work, trying to do their best, thinking that they are a good guy, doing a good job, being straightforward and honest, and they are in so many ways. But this one little thing can trip it. And you actually can end up putting a lot of energy into, like if I'm not aware, and I'm, I think I'm pretty aware, so I'm trying not to do this, but there's an instinct in me that says, well, I can't trust.

[00:11:27] Karen: So now I have to like, ask him a ton of questions and check everything and make sure that you know all the details of the construction are right and all of that. You can land in more of that space that burns through time and energy because the trust got damaged on the timing thing. Where if you just had stepped up your communication just a little bit to say, you know, check in on some scale that makes sense for your project.

[00:11:52] Karen: But in this case, if twice a week he just checked in and said, yeah, we're running a little late, or this thing happened that is pushing that piece back, or whatever. If he just paused, I don't think it's possible for him to think all day, every day, what's this doing to Karen? That's not the world he's-

[00:12:08] Paul: You don't, you don't want him to. 

[00:12:09] Karen: I don't want I'd much rather he was thinking about, yes, we can save that window for you if we move this over here, which he also does. So I like that. And I give him a lot of credit for that, but it would change the experience a lot if just twice a week or even once a week he paused and said, this is where we are.

[00:12:26] Karen: This is different. And that piece that I really wanna point to is, this is different than what I told you before.

Practical Tips for Honest Communication

[00:12:32] Paul: I will say that, you know, in my experience, one of the things that I really try to do, in running my business, right, is that when I make a promise to somebody and I say, I will have this thing for you by Friday end of day, at the point where I know that that's not gonna be true, I let them know and I say.

[00:12:47] Paul: I know that I told you I'd have this to you Friday, end of the day, that's not gonna happen. I will have it for you by Tuesday afternoon. Right. And then hit that, right? That's my other piece around it. And what I find is that that builds trust, right? And usually I'll often say something like, I know I said, I have this for you on Friday.

[00:13:06] Paul: I will have this for you on Tuesday. Please let me know if you need it over the weekend, and I will do what I can. And I usually get something back saying, oh, no problem. Tuesday is great. Right? Or, thanks for letting me know, Tuesday is fine. Sometimes it's like, no, I do need that first thing Monday morning because blah, blah, blah.

[00:13:22] Paul: And now I know. But that type of communication builds a much stronger relationship. Because we now really know what's going on. As opposed to they don't hear from me on Friday, they don't hear from me on Monday. On Tuesday. I go, oh, I'm really sorry, but here it is. Right? And they're like, that's a very, you know, they get the thing at the same time, but they have a completely different experience.

[00:13:45] Paul: I think that's really the key to this whole idea of how these things show up in the space between. 

[00:13:50] Karen: So I think what we're saying is that there's lots of spaces where we give estimates about how things are gonna go. Timing is a big one. So when we're in the space of timing, this is when I think it's gonna happen. Once I've said that, then I need to pay attention to, do I think that's still true and, and maybe it's not what I'm thinking about mostly 'cause mostly I'm thinking about the job I'm doing.

[00:14:10] Karen: But at some point along the way, I need to pause and go, I said I was gonna have it done by then. Am I gonna have it done by then? And at the moment that I realize, yeah, that's never gonna happen. I need to right away follow up with that person and say, I know I said this and that's not what's gonna happen.

[00:14:28] Karen: And maybe I give a reason. If there is a reason to give or say, if that's a problem, let me know. I'll see what I can do. That kind of thing. But that ownership of I said this, and that's not what's gonna happen because it builds trust and also because it lets the other person mitigate whatever consequences there are of it not being done.

[00:14:50] Karen: The sooner they know, the better they can deal with it, and if they're hearing from me that it's not gonna happen. That has a totally different feel than if we wait until they figure out on their own that it's not gonna happen and then are coming back to me for it. So we really can build trust, build a stronger relationship, end up in a better place by taking time periodically to think, is that expectation that I set we're gonna match and then owning it if it's not.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

[00:15:16] Paul: Well, that's gonna do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis. 

[00:15:20] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig, and this has been Employing Differences.