Introduction to Employing Differences

[00:00:03] Paul: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

[00:00:08] Karen: I'm Karen Gimnig. 

[00:00:10] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis.

[00:00:11] Karen: Each episode we start with a question and see where it takes us. 

What Are Listening Skills?

[00:00:14] Karen: This week's question is, what are listening skills? 

[00:00:19] Paul: So I think many of us have been exposed in the past to the idea of active listening, and there's these bucket of skills that are supposed to make us better as listeners.

[00:00:28] Paul: And as Karen and I sort of teed up last week, this is the first episode of a series of skills that we teach and that we think are useful for relating more effectively to one another. When we talk about that collaborative space between individuals, these are skills that allow us to more fully inhabit that space.

[00:00:45] Paul: And listening is absolutely one of those buckets, those collections of skills. There's a lot of different things out there that I think many of us may have encountered, we'll talk a little bit about some of those before. But when Karen and I first met at a consultants retreat almost six years ago, now at this point, Karen became the most popular person at the retreat by teaching this particular skill, and I was blown away by it.

[00:01:09] Paul: And it's an approach to listening that I'd never really encountered anything like it before. So Karen's gonna explain a little bit about how this works, and then we'll dig into some other related cousin skills. Again, things that we can do that make us better at understanding what's going on with another person.

[00:01:27] Karen: So I wanna credit this where I learned it actually, which is from the Imago Relationships Theory folks, founders, Harville Hendrix and Helen LaKelley Hunt, generated this and threw it out into the world 35 years ago. So it's well practiced and I'm gonna give just a piece of what they call their Imago dialogue.

The Concept of Mirroring

[00:01:44] Karen: But the piece that we're talking about today, which is about listening, in their terminology is mirroring. And I wanna say, I don't use this every time I speak Paul, and I don't use this a lot in our like, one-on-one conversations that if we wanna get good at mirroring, if we're in skill building, which is really what this episode is about.

[00:02:02] Karen: I find this to be fabulously effective. It's also really effective. What you wanna do is connect and build trust and build safety. So that's why anybody who works with me, this is probably the first lesson. It's pretty rare for me to do any kind of work with a group that doesn't start with this exercise.

The Mirroring Exercise

[00:02:19] Karen: So it goes like this. It's gonna be a two person exercise. One person is going to be practicing as the listener or what we call the receiver. And in order for that, somebody to be listening. Somebody else has to be speaking. We call them the sender. And one of the key elements of this practice is separating the receiving from the sending.

[00:02:40] Karen: When you're receiving, you're only receiving, you're not getting ready to respond, you're not interpreting, you're not analyzing, you're not relating it to your own world. Like really part of the point here is to focus your whole brain on hanging out in their world and understanding them. And the way we do that is by challenging our brain to do something that it doesn't do very often.

[00:03:03] Karen: So the sender will speak. And usually it's just a couple of sentences at a time. We usually have to chunk it because we're not as good at this as we think we'd be. But the sender will say a couple of sentences of something, and the receiver's job is to repeat it back as close to the same words as they can.

[00:03:21] Karen: So, if the sender says I like ice cream, the receiver's gonna say, what I hear you say is, you like ice cream. And then we're gonna check for understanding. Did I get you? And we like that phrase. Did I get you? Not was I right? Not did I do a good job because it's not about me, it's about you. Did I get you? Do you feel understood? And if the sender says, yep, you got me, whether the words matched or not, you got me then they say, yes.

[00:03:51] Karen: If the words, whether or not the words were right, if it's like, wait, that doesn't feel like what I wanted to say. Even if you use my same words, then the sender might say, well, what I really want you to hear is, and then the receiver's gonna go around again. What I heard you say is, and then did I get you?

[00:04:07] Karen: And then the last piece, which I think is pretty unique in this practice, I have not run into this other places, but it's invitational and it is the question, is there more? There almost always is. And it's more that even the sender didn't know that they. had at the beginning, but they've heard back, they've had a chance to think about, and now there's more. It's very often the like deepest, most interesting part of the send.

[00:04:32] Karen: And they're gonna say what they say and then you go through that cycle as long as it takes to be done. So then it's what I heard you say. Did I get you, is there more? that is the cycle that is mirroring. And I've done this with exercises that are as few as like a minute or two of mirroring or as much as half an hour to an hour of mirroring depending on what your goals and objectives are.

[00:04:56] Karen: And you of course, can then reverse roles and do the exercise again. The other way, not required, depends on, what your goals are again, But in terms of a practice, that, is the summary of how we do mirroring. 

Challenges in Mirroring

[00:05:07] Paul: And what happens when you do this for the first time is you think you are good at it, and you discover that as the receiver, you actually are terrible because, I mean, and I'm a pretty good listener and the first time I was exposed to this, I was working super hard. And part of that is sometimes, you know, you're asking the person, the sender to send in smaller chunks, right?

[00:05:31] Paul: Let me mirror this part back to you before I lose it. You know, I can't hold all of that at once, you know, kinds of things. That sort of chunking and pacing. But even just going, like, did I get you know, the word here that, this, the other. Your brain is not used to doing this.

Brain Training Through Listening

[00:05:47] Karen: I think of this as brain training, and I teach it to people as brain training. This is like learning a language or learning an instrument or something like that. And we think we listen a lot, but we don't do this. We don't focus our brain on taking in the information that somebody else is giving us.

[00:06:06] Karen: There are studies about how much of what we hear we actually recall and take in, and I've seen numbers as low as 14% or as high as around 50%, but rarely, do you see any kind of study that suggests that a human routinely takes in more than half of what they've said. So is it any wonder that we often feel unheard? 

[00:06:28] Paul: And, you know, dear listener, the dirty secret is you may notice that at the end of many episodes we recap what we've talked about. And I'd say it's about 70% of the time it's Karen who's doing those recaps. It's because her brain is way more trained to do this than mine is. So I'm trying, right.

[00:06:45] Paul: But there are times when I'm like, I don't know if I'm gonna be able to summarize what we talked about. And that's a testament to how this is a skill that you can practice, that you can get better at that over the course of, you know, we record a 15, 20 minute episode. And Karen can recap it pretty well.

[00:07:02] Paul: Oftentimes, directly quoting things that we talked about, using the words and phrases that we actually landed on in the middle of the episode. Those were not things that we came up with ahead of time. So it's a thing that you absolutely can learn how to do, but you have to practice doing it.

[00:07:22] Karen: And I think practice is key. And the good news is that the practice, while it can be, it's work. There are days I'm not up for it, I will say. And it's emotional work, so that's its own thing. But as you get practiced at it, it's something that you can begin to do just naturally. 

Practical Applications of Mirroring

[00:07:39] Karen: So this is the exercise, and I think it's useful in all kinds of like this as the exercise.

[00:07:44] Karen: We're going to do the mirroring. We've agreed to it. This is how we're going to talk about our conflict. Super useful in that way. But even if you're not gonna do that, because it's awkward, because you don't wanna take the time because you don't wanna do the emotional work of that full mirror because the person that you're with doesn't like the structure and it feels put on or artificial or something.

[00:08:04] Karen: There are a lot of reasons you may not want to use this, but if you have been actively practicing it, you can either intentionally or honestly, it starts to happen unintentionally. You will naturally be a better listener. You will take in more, you will understand more. And I actually think that the other person gets that.

[00:08:26] Karen: I think there's an intuition about it that happens between people. So, from my experience when I did my imago training, we did three or four days of this, and for three or four days straight, the instructor might at any moment say, so who's gonna mirror that? So your brain is just, if someone's talking, you're like listening that way.

[00:08:46] Karen: And even if you're not the one who's gonna speak it, you might, so you're ready. And the world just sounded different to me for like a week after that, like, I mean, it's gotta be like somebody getting glasses for the first time or getting hearing aids for the first time or something. Like the world is different. You perceive things differently. At least that's what happened for me.

[00:09:05] Karen: But I also think that I am perceived differently. It was after I learned this practice that people would say things to me like, I just walk in the room and I see you there. And I feel safer. There is a sense of being known, of being held, of being valued that comes from this practice.

[00:09:24] Karen: And I've known people who were like, you know my husband doesn't like he doesn't wanna do the mirroring thing. He doesn't want me to do it, so I just do it in my head. And even that has the effect of that sense of that they're heard. So there are a lot of ways to go with it, but I just find this incredibly powerful. 

[00:09:42] Paul: And there are cousins of this, as we kind of said, right? 

Paraphrasing and Summarizing

[00:09:48] Paul: So a lot of people know about things like paraphrasing and summarizing which are not the sort of full on and intense versions of this. But one of the things that I think that, you know, and I think those things are useful, right?

[00:09:55] Paul: And I think doing this will help you get better at those. One of the things when I'm, for example, I use summarizing and paraphrasing when I'm working with people all the time because there's two pieces to that. One, I actually wanna make sure that I am getting what they're wanting me to understand, like what they're saying.

[00:10:11] Paul: And so it's useful for me to, one of the things that I will catch myself is realizing, if I can't summarize it, it means I haven't tuned in enough, right? I've been distracted or I've lost the thread. And so that's the thing in the Imago mirroring exercise where it's like, I realize the chunk is too big.

[00:10:29] Paul: And so it's also kind of trained me to start to do the, when someone's gonna monologue at me and I can't keep track of all the things. I've learned how to sort of gently interrupt to say like, I just wanna make sure that I caught what you said there. Are you like, what I heard you say was blah.

[00:10:46] Paul: Right. And it means that I've got a much better chance of catching all of that stuff. Even if they've never seen this exercise before, I can do these kinds of things in it. I'm catching, there's three things really for me around this. 

Ensuring Understanding

[00:10:57] Paul: One is I'm making sure that I'm catching it better.

[00:11:00] Paul: Two, I'm closing the loop to make sure that I'm actually understanding it. I know that the whole point about like, did I get you, is really about, so you heard me mirror this back to you, or you heard me paraphrase it or summarize it. Do you trust that I actually understood it or understood it well enough?

[00:11:21] Paul: You know, sometimes I tell people if I'm 80% correct, don't argue with me about the other 20%. It's good enough kind of thing.

[00:11:28] Karen: Unless the other 20% was the part you cared most about. 

[00:11:31] Paul: Except that should be in the 80%. That's a piece that comes from Terry Real, the marriage counselor where he says, but it's like, okay, so I actually wanna check for understanding.

[00:11:41] Paul: I can think that I caught it, but getting the acknowledgement from the other person that I actually did is the important part. And then the third piece around the, like, is there more? 

Creating Space for Others

[00:11:59] Paul: That's for me, the whole practice is also about creating space for the other person to fill. And this is something that I work with on, you know, with leaders on when I'm coaching them and they're like, you know, where they, they want people to step up and it's like, in order for that to happen, you have to step back.

[00:12:10] Paul: You actually, and you need to not just invite them into the space. You have to draw those things out of them. And so for me, part of listening, and this is where we're gonna shade a little bit over into the skill of curiosity, which we'll talk more about in a couple of episodes, like is you're also making it incredibly natural and easy and comfortable for them to step into that, to tell you things.

[00:12:35] Paul: And that's, for me, that's the real piece about listening. And when you said like, you show up in the world differently as a result of this skill. That people feel safe when you're around. 

The Relational Impact of Listening

[00:12:47] Paul: That's the effect that this has. And it's not just about the informational part.

[00:12:51] Paul: And the reason why, for me listening is a relational skill is it's not just about I know what you know, so now we can make better decisions. It creates connection to feel heard. It creates trust and safety to know that I actually have heard what you have to say. It has that relational impact in addition to the informational part.

[00:13:12] Paul: And that's where the pieces around sort of the, where tone, right. And really practicing it. It's not just the words, it's all of the nonverbal stuff around the listening is also really important. Because that's one of the big things that creates that impact.

[00:13:28] Karen: Yeah. 

Mirroring in Early Development

[00:13:29] Karen: And I just wanna really punctuate that piece about the impact that it has on nervous system. I do think it's deep in our early, early brain development. And you see this, that they actually did a study related to mothers mirroring their infants. So when the infants are at that stage where they're blah, blah again, those kinds of things that they love it.

[00:13:55] Karen: Babies just light up like crazy when you get close to them and just mirror them, make the expressions that they're making, make the movements that they're making, make the sounds that they're making and they light up. And some scientists got excited about this and thought, well, let, let's see what this really looks like.

[00:14:13] Karen: And did a study with mothers. And that was the first part of the exercise was just to mirror exactly what baby did and all the babies got super excited. And then the mothers were instructed to just go blank face. They only did it with a handful of kids because they decided it was so traumatic to the children that it was unethical to continue.

[00:14:34] Karen: The kids hated it. That non-responsive to not have another human on the other side was so hurtful. And I think that kind of speaks to what happens in our inner psyches. And what I have found to be true is that this mirroring piece is incredibly grounding. 

Calming Through Mirroring

[00:14:54] Karen: One of the places that it can be used is if somebody is like irate and raging, like if, like out of control raging.

[00:15:03] Karen: One of the most effective things that you can do is to start mirroring them. You do, by the way, have to match their intensity and if they're swearing, you have to mirror the swear words and all that kind of thing because you don't want it to seem like you're trying to calm them down.

[00:15:15] Karen: You want to be hearing them. And to really deeply listen to them. And it's remarkable how calming it is, even if they know exactly what you're doing, by the way. It's just like biological in us. If it can do that when we're in a rage, imagine the power that it has when you're in a deeply meaningful, calmer conversation. 

Overcoming Resistance to Listening Practices

[00:15:40] Paul: I will say this is, you know, these listening practices are things where, you know, I encourage people to do them a lot and I often get resistance, right? Where people go, oh, you know, first of all they go, well, that's just too simple. And it's like, it's actually the simple things that work the best.

[00:15:55] Paul: Don't over complicate it. But also, because we're not used to doing it. We're like, oh, it's gonna feel awkward. Well, of course it's gonna feel awkward. You've never done it before. It's a new skill, right? You should expect that. That doesn't mean you're doing it wrong. In fact, it means you're probably doing it right.

[00:16:11] Paul: And so as with any of these things, right? If you're actually looking to build these skills, you need to do it in an environment where it's safe to be awkward. And sometimes, you know, I often coach people to tell them, you know, tell people that they're working with, Hey, I'm working on this thing.

[00:16:27] Paul: Could you gimme a chance to practice it? Could I try it with you? And say things like, you know, I'm working on doing this thing because I'm self-conscious of it. My tone might not match my words. I'd like you to trust my words for a little bit. Because I haven't internalized it.

[00:16:42] Paul: I haven't become natural yet. And that happens. And I think particularly with mirroring and paraphrasing and summarizing, like all of this set of listening skills, these things where you need to do something, we are so not used to doing it. We should expect that that's gonna be clunky and we should push through it.

[00:16:59] Paul: It is as you said, this set of things if you do nothing else of the six skills that we're gonna talk about over the course of these episodes. If you just do this, it will improve the quality of your working relationships, the relationships you're in, your ability to relate to other people because it unlocks so many different things.

[00:17:19] Paul: And so I just don't think that, oh, it doesn't sound like me. It doesn't sound like you right now. It will sound like you, you can learn how to internalize this and make it part of your vocabulary and your style, and for me, it's totally worth it to do that.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

[00:17:35] Karen: So the skill of the day is listening, and we're approaching it largely through the Imago relationships practice of mirroring broken down is putting yourself in the role of receiver. I'm not trying to analyze or respond to or react to. I'm just trying to be present with and take in what someone else is sharing.

[00:17:56] Karen: And I do that by letting them speak in small chunks and saying, what I heard you say is, did I get you? Is there more? And so, it's that mirror of what they said, the check of, did I get it? And the invitation for what more there could be. And when we do that, it has a ton of effects. One, the biggest is it's brain training. We get better at it.

[00:18:19] Karen: One of the things that is sort of revelatory for most people the first time they do this is how much they thought they were a good listener and they're not good at this. But we can get better. I'm absolutely convinced that anybody can get better at this with practice in the same way that, you may not get totally fluent in a foreign language, but you certainly can learn some of it. And you may not ever be a virtuoso, but you can learn to plunk out a tune on a piano if you practice.

[00:18:43] Karen: Practice will build more skills and that will be meaningful in this. And it's partly about the information exchange, but it's even more about the emotional impact, that deep listening and when someone feels really heard because they are really heard. It's grounding. It increases trust. It increases safety. It's really profoundly different in the relational space to have that deep listening there.

[00:19:09] Karen: And so we're really encouraging you to take this as a key practice. If you wanna get better at relationships, this is the most bang for your buck. I know how to give you. And I just wanna close with one of my favorite quotes, which is from David Augsburger, who says, "Being heard is so close to being loved that for the average person, they are almost indistinguishable." And I think that's why it matters. 

[00:19:32] Paul: Well, that's gonna do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis.

[00:19:36] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig, and this has been Employing Differences.