Introduction to Employing Differences

[00:00:03] Paul: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

[00:00:08] Karen: I'm Karen Gimnig.

[00:00:09] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis.

[00:00:11] Karen: Each episode we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is: what do I do with the feedback?

[00:00:19] Paul: So feedback is on my mind right now because one of the things I'm, a project that I'm doing for a client right now is helping to gather feedback for some leaders to help them actually have some strong feedback conversations with the people that they work with. So that they can figure out, you know, how do they become more effective and better leaders in this particular context.

[00:00:37] Paul: And feedback is a fraught topic. We've talked some about it in various places before, but the thing that Karen and I want to explore today is this idea of when somebody gives us feedback, solicited or unsolicited, what do we do with it? What are things that make that work better?

[00:00:58] Paul: And what are things that make it not work so well? So, if somebody gives me feedback, what do I do with it?

The Importance of Intentional Feedback

[00:01:05] Karen: Yeah, and I think that one of the places that makes this more challenging is that we've kind of developed a culture in a lot of places around. We should always get feedback, you know, fill out the review, fill out the response form at the end of the workshop, here's the evaluation form, all that kind of stuff.

[00:01:25] Karen: And I think one of the mistakes people make is that they just do it because they're supposed to without having any plan about what they're gonna do with the data. So I think there's a big difference between saying, wow, I really wanna know how this works and what, how things landed and how things were for people.

[00:01:43] Karen: So I'm asking for feedback, which is a very different thing than, well, I'm supposed to ask for feedback, so I guess I'll hand everybody a form or you know, whatever the format is that you're using. So I think the first thing is, even do I want feedback? I will tell you, when I was brand new consultant, I really wanted feedback and I made sure I did forms and that kind of thing.

[00:02:05] Karen: These days, I've been doing what I'm doing for a long time. I'm happy to get input from people, but it's maybe not as big a priority. I don't know that it's worth the time that it will take them all to fill out the form. I don't know that it's where I wanna spend the energy that I have with them because I've been doing this for a while.

[00:02:23] Karen: I feel pretty good about what I do and I don't wanna ask people to put in the time for feedback if I'm not gonna be in a mindset of being likely to make changes as a result of it.

When to Ask for Feedback

[00:02:33] Paul: Yeah, there's a really great, you know, point of discernment there around like, is it even worth asking for? And I have that too.

[00:02:39] Paul: It's actually one of the things that people ask Allison and I about the classes that we teach. It's like, well, why don't you ask for feedback at the end of the class? And I'm like, because you're mostly gonna tell us whether or not you enjoyed the class. And to some level, we don't care. I mean, I don't mean that, but what we actually care about is are you implementing these things?

[00:02:58] Paul: Does it make a difference in your organization? And we can't measure that yet. Like, so it's actually not useful for us to try to do that. That's actually what we care a little bit more about. We've worked the material enough to know. Like it generally does what it needs to do in the course and things like that.

[00:03:14] Paul: So it's like, so we actually don't ask about it in that way because we actually don't think it's as you put it, necessarily a good use of the student's energies there. 

Handling Feedback Effectively

[00:03:23] Paul: But that points to the larger thing of, if we're gonna ask, it needs to have something, we need to know what we're gonna do with it.

[00:03:31] Paul: Because also, like one of the things you can go really off with this is like when people know that they're supposed to ask for feedback about stuff, but they actually have no plan to incorporate any of the ideas that they get. That contributes to, you know, just this feeling of like, well, this is a checkbox, like this is a performative ask.

[00:03:50] Paul: You're asking us for feedback, but we don't see the results of that feedback in what the next iteration of this strategy or things like whatever it is you're asking for feedback on. It could be feedback on a piece of work or it could be feedback for you how you show up, as a leader or as a team member or things like that.

[00:04:10] Paul: And so if we feel like our feedback makes no difference, then we're gonna stop giving it. It's a real breeding ground for cynicism too, and it's a way to lose trust. And a lot of cases, this is the thing I actually advise, you know, particularly folks who are in positions of authority, where they're making a decision.

[00:04:27] Paul: If the decision is made, don't ask for feed back or input on it. Like just be clear with people. The ship has already sailed because people need to know that actually they can't influence it. Letting people think that they can influence things when they really can't. People start to see through that over time, and it destroys your credibility.

[00:04:49] Karen: And in the spaces that I work in that aren't hierarchical, it's an even worse problem if someone says, you know, hey, I'm gonna send this thing out, but I thought I'd run it by you first. What input would you have? And then the other person gives a bunch of input and the original drafter looks at it and go, yeah, well, no, I'm not gonna do that and I'm not gonna do that, and I'm not gonna do that.

[00:05:08] Karen: And then sends it out with the same language that the other person thought was problematic. It really makes people angry. And it feels like a violation even more. I mean, it's one thing if the boss who has the hierarchy and they have the authority to make the decision, but when someone is leaving on behalf of a group and other people in the group have actually said, I think we shouldn't do it this way, and then they go ahead and do it that way anyway without some kind of closing the loop.

[00:05:40] Karen: I can't think of anything that's much worse for breaking trust than that. It almost feels like lying. Like it's really, really damaging. 

Closing the Feedback Loop

[00:05:49] Karen: And so I think what we wanna talk about here is what to do and you know, it's not hard if you agree with the feedback, right? If you get feedback and you're like, great, yep, I should do those things.

[00:06:02] Karen: Good idea. Okay. And you do it. I don't think we have to say a lot about what to do in that situation, but the real challenge is you get feedback and for whatever reason you don't wish to implement it, it would take longer. You think your way is better, which by the way is a legitimate reason. Have that conversation or there's something they didn't see, like it would have some other impact that they or don't know, but you know, whatever it is, if you just decide not to do it and don't circle back. Not great in a hierarchy situation, even worse in a collaborative situation.

[00:06:38] Paul: Yeah. And for me that really is the key thing here is that what do I do with the feedback? You know, either acknowledge and act on it or acknowledge and flag that you aren't going to act on it. Like close the loop with people on that. For me, the gold standard around this that made a huge impression on me 15 plus years ago when I was in this facilitation training course, and it was five days long, so at the end of every day.

[00:07:03] Paul: The instructors are asking for feedback and part of what we're really asking for is suggestions, right? Advice. What would you like to see us do differently? Sorts of things. And they're capturing all of them and writing them down on a chart. 'Cause we're all in the same room doing this. And then the next day we come back to that and basically, you know, they'll come back and say, great.

[00:07:22] Paul: So these were the things that were asked for. These things we've decided to do. So you'll see how that shows up in this here. We're gonna do a longer break today. 'Cause people said that because of this, like there wasn't enough time to do things. So we've adjusted the length of the breaks. And then for stuff that they weren't gonna do, they actually made this very clear that they had talked directly to the person who had given them that piece, right?

[00:07:46] Paul: Who had said, made that request, I'd love it if we could do this thing. They had followed up with that person and said. Here's why I am not gonna do that. And I, I get that, you know, it would be easier for you if, or I see, understand why you would like to see this, and also that would have this other effect that, you know, on this other thing that I'm not willing to do.

[00:08:06] Paul: So I'm not gonna take that. I want you to know that I heard what you were asking for and I get why you're asking for it and I'm not gonna do it. And then they would bring it, you know, to the whole group. So it was this beautiful example of how to take feedback. Then what to do with it. And so even for those people who suggestions were not implemented, whose feedback didn't get dealt with, they were actually good with it because they understood why.

[00:08:32] Paul: And you know, and even if they're like, well I still wish it had been that way. It felt way better than it just then no feedback about their feedback happening. If that loop had just been left open and they just ignored that they'd been given that feedback. It would've been way, way worse. And so I think for me, that's the thing is that if you're not gonna do the thing, it's better to tell people you're not gonna do the thing than to not do the thing and not tell them.

[00:09:00] Paul: Because now you've got two problems.

[00:09:02] Karen: It's so true, and I love that this was part of a facilitation type training because that's exactly the place where you'd expect to see it modeled or hope to see it modeled really well. So I think that's a beautiful example. And it also is a very, because it's such a gold standard, right? It's a very robust way to do it, and the gold standard often takes more resources than a more shortcutted version.

[00:09:29] Karen: And so I just wanna say like, I don't know that every situation calls for that, but I do think that it behooves anybody, especially in leadership, anyone acting on behalf of anybody else to pay attention when people have asked for something to be different or given feedback about, you know, I don't like the way you do this.

[00:09:50] Karen: I wish you'd do it differently, that kind of thing. So that one way or another that loop gets closed.

The Value of Acknowledging Feedback

[00:09:56] Paul: Yeah, because I think it's important to acknowledge that the person who's given you feedback has made a nons substantial effort or a, a substantial effort. Right? A non-trivial effort, because giving people feedback can actually be quite hard. And in general, if people do that, it's because they expect that it will matter in some way.

[00:10:17] Paul: Right. If I'm giving you the feedback about how, hey, once again, you know, in this meeting, like the way that you ask questions made me defensive like that triggered some stuff in me. You know, I want you to know that's what's going on. Even if I'm not saying like, could you do this instead of that?

[00:10:34] Paul: Right. Even if I'm not making the suggestion, even if I'm just letting you know this was the impact that your behavior had. It's a big thing for me to do, particularly if you're in a position of authority. And so, but I'm doing it because I think something will happen, right?

[00:10:49] Paul: That it will matter in some way. And so I think we kind of owe it to people that when they give us that kind of stuff to, like, if we're not gonna do anything about it, we need to let them know in parts of the, maybe they just, they recognize like that thing isn't going to change so that they should stop thinking that it's going to.

[00:11:07] Paul: But for me, it's this kind of reciprocity thing. Where it's like if someone has gone to the effort of actually suggesting things that they think would make things better or pointing out the impacts of our behavior, for me, it's kind of like our end of the bargain to be like, thank you.

[00:11:22] Paul: I understand what you're saying now. Here's what I'm gonna do with it or not. That there's this kind of a deal there for me.

[00:11:29] Karen: Yeah, so I think what we're saying overall is actually very simple this time, which is if you get feedback in a really explicit way, you want to respond to it in a really explicit way. Because if you don't, and especially if you asked for feedback, if you said, Hey, how do you feel about this? Or what do you want with that?

[00:11:49] Karen: I mean, it can be as simple as what would you like for dinner? And they say, I love chicken. And then you give them beef and they're like, what happened? Why did you ask me? Like if you don't give some kind of response. It's really, I think trust is the number one word I would have here is that it really breaks trust.

[00:12:04] Karen: And we do it sometimes because it really is performative. Somebody told us we should ask for feedback, so we're asking for feedback or we're supposed to get some kind of evaluation form because we're supposed to do that or whatever. And we're really saying, ask for it if you plan to use it, and then let people know how you're using it or why you're deciding not to.

[00:12:25] Karen: And sometimes that means going to the individual. Sometimes it means sharing with the group if the feedback was made in a group. Sometimes it's both depending. But that closing that loop really supports the idea of ongoing feedback loops, which we think are a very good and healthy thing, and it way decreases the likelihood that you're gonna end up sideways with the other people involved in whatever decisions or behaviors you're doing or meetings you're in.

[00:12:51] Paul: Well, that's gonna do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis.

[00:12:55] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig, and this has been Employing Differences.